[cma-l] [***SPAM***]
gary.jackson at my-generation.org.uk
gary.jackson at my-generation.org.uk
Sun Sep 6 16:04:51 BST 2015
I live in Southampton, I have a Roberts 83i stream DAB radio and I STILL
can't get a decent DAB signal for radio 2
Gary
On 06/09/2015 13:08, Canalside's The Thread wrote:
>
> Chaps
>
> All this technical Radio jargon is very interesting indeed and very
> educational …. I have to confess I don’t understand all of it but I’m
> getting to learn about 40% of it with a couple of our tecky chaps
> hovering around 70% ….you guys are clearly experts (re :- James /
> Ian / Alex / Glynn et al) however chaps, we never seem to manage
> to get to the nitty gritty, and I would imagine at least half of the
> folk on the message board are slightly more interested in how much
> money does each Community Radio Station need to save in its Piggy Bank
> to get itself on small scale DAB & FM, as opposed to learning about
> algorithms ….. (this is a tongue in-cheek joke chaps merely asking
> what I feel the more important question, so don’t shoot the messenger)
>
> I have already asked the question and I would imagine that the likes
> of Ian being in his field of work (for example) would be able to come
> up with a ball-park figure) I know DAB trials are taking place but
> surely whether successful or not the end result is can it be afforded
> ? if it can’t be afforded then the whole exercise is pointless
> anyway isn’t it ???
>
> I am merely picking up on James’s observations and Glynn (I think)
> who pointed out that possibly this DAB malarkey is one of those
> situations whereby we some of us may end being dragged kicking and
> screaming as failure to hook into it would mean the big boys clear up
> completely.
>
> We all understand what Community Radio is about, but regardless of the
> whys, whats and wherefores we still have to compete at some kind of
> level or we wither and die (unless of course we win the lottery or
> receive grants that don’t exist)(re my post earlier this week)
>
> Would you gentlemen of great Community Radio loveliness please flop a
> ball park figure on this message board for all to see re the cost of
> medium priced equipment, set up and running for DAB …… on top of what
> I have roughly worked out to be and ongoing cost of around = £5000
> quid for those already broadcasting (new additions of course would
> have their initial set up – transmitters / aerials / installation etc)
>
> This five grand figure allows for maintainance and includes
> PPL/PRS/Canstream/other licences/Internet/Ofcom licence ….. I have
> kept it top side as opposed to lower end.
>
> Assuming that PPL/PRS will be hovering, circling and then charging
> additionally for something that technically is already covered, would
> the figure be roughly the same? as I have to admit reading all the
> posts we seem to have gone from DAB being really expensive to it not
> being quite as expensive as we first thought, to it being rather cheap
> and then back to reasonably expensive again and for us to do it we
> would be doing it because we simply ‘had to’ ’or else’ as opposed to
> wanting to do it in otherwords the ‘getting left behind discussion.
>
> I hope you have followed my thread and got the gist of it, apologies
> if it is in laymans terms.
>
> Let’s us call the discussion not ‘’’versus’’’ but DAB & FM
>
> Thank you
>
> Regards
>
> Nick
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk
> [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] *On Behalf Of *James
> Cridland
> *Sent:* 05 September 2015 20:47
> *To:* Two Lochs Radio; cma-l
> *Subject:* Re: [cma-l] Eddie on DAB v FM
>
> I use TuneIn's app too.
>
> Radioplayer provides:
>
> 1. A web player that actually works, and that lets people find your
> station from BBC Radio 2!
>
> 2. A capable app that surfaces your station - first - for people in
> your transmission area on iOS and Android, Amazon and Windows.
>
> 3. Logos, schedules and broadcast details for your station for a
> variety of uses including Radioplayer Car, RadioDNS-enabled tuners,
> and other things
>
> 4. A Chrome app (which I wrote <- disclosure) that puts your station
> onto everyone's desktop
>
> 5. An app that puts your station onto Ford Sync, Apple CarPlay and
> Android Auto (and lets you control it from Apple Watch and Android Wear)
>
> 6. Liason on behalf of the entire radio industry to set-top box
> manufacturers, car manufacturers and other organisations that you
> don't talk to nor have the clout to
>
> 7. Usage data
>
> ...and is run on behalf of the radio industry with your goals in mind.
>
> Even for #1 on that list, it's worth the £99. I appreciate it isn't
> free; but then, it isn't slotting ads in front of your streams or
> making you compete with 100,000 other stations, either.
>
> //j
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 8:32 PM Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk
> <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> //Your fee for Radioplayer is £99. “A more proportionate fee”?!//
>
> Just so, but Michael originally asked £300, which we negotiated
> down to £90 (that was at launch, it has increased 10% since).
>
> TuneIn's app provides more advanced facilities than Radioplayer
> and the service is entirely free to originating stations. They
> also provide a schedule and 'On now' without us having to lift a
> finger - they scrape our own published schedule periodically (I
> must ask them to update it as it seems to be slightly out of date).
>
> Alex
>
>> On 05 September 2015 at 20:03 James Cridland <james at cridland.net
>> <mailto:james at cridland.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Your fee for Radioplayer is £99. "A more proportionate fee"?!
>>
>> On Sat, 5 Sep 2015 19:47 Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk
>> <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, of course I'm aware of the other variants of FM, my
>> point was that there seems ot be alarge enough market for RDS
>> for set makers, even portables and some phones, such as HTC,
>> to judge it worthwhile supporting RDS.
>>
>> //And you need to be continuously scanning the FM and DAB
>> bands to populate this station list name, otherwise when
>> travelling you'll never find local radio.//
>>
>> The radio does that for itself unbidden. I routinely use the
>> radio's station list to see what stations are in range.
>>
>> //Incidentally, I cannot comprehend why anyone wouldn't be on
>> Radioplayer, I must say: its the R&D department for the whole
>> of UK radio.//
>>
>> The main reason for not being on RadioPlayer would be the
>> cost and the fact that ithey won't allow you to be on mobiles
>> if you don't provide a low-rate bitstream. We joined it when
>> the BBC was on it and didn't have its own radioplayer which
>> rather undermined UK Radioplayer's proposition. But we did
>> first have to negotiate a more proportionate fee!
>>
>> As a user, I still prefer to use TuneIn. It has far more
>> facilities.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>> On 05 September 2015 at 18:45 James Cridland
>>> <james at cridland.net <mailto:james at cridland.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, Alex,
>>>
>>> The UK market is a tiny and inconsequential one to most
>>> manufacturers. The Digital Radio tickmark thing is actually
>>> deliberately set to mirror similar accreditation systems in
>>> Europe and Australia. Further, the radio industry is
>>> uninterested in how radio sets operate, and not big or
>>> united enough to talk to most manufacturers in a coherent
>>> manner.
>>>
>>> Really, we have a "North America vs rest-of-world" thing
>>> going on in radio receivers. You are correct that AM is
>>> different - so is FM, in fact, with different deemphasis
>>> values used as well as different frequency spacing. Pedants:
>>> Japan's different still, with FM from 76 to 108MHz. And
>>> parts of ex Soviet countries use something different again.
>>>
>>> "Animated and dynamic RDS names do not break tuning by name"
>>> - I bow to your obvious knowledge. I'd only observe that
>>> scrolling now-playing info, in place in many parts of the
>>> world, means that you end up with station names like "TY
>>> PERRY" or even "LE NOW O" which really isn't the sort of
>>> user experience any one wants to give, and certainly isn't
>>> recognisable.
>>>
>>> Tuning by station name doesn't work on AM - but I'd argue
>>> that AM isn't part of radio's future anyway. (Pedants: it
>>> does, if you use AMSS, a kind of RDS for AM. Nobody does).
>>>
>>> Further, the ideal is tuning by station name irrespective of
>>> waveband - so you'd get "BBC 6 Music" in the same list as
>>> "TwoLochs". (You want that, right?) The issue here is that
>>> de-duping the list isn't simple; "BBC R Scot" on FM in your
>>> part of the world could be different to "BBC Radio Scotland"
>>> on an available local multiplex, because of local optouts.
>>> The BBC have deliberately broken service-following between
>>> FM and DAB, which has the side effect of also breaking any
>>> way that your radio can de-dupe Radio 4 FM from Radio 4 DAB.
>>> And so on.
>>>
>>> And you need to be continuously scanning the FM and DAB
>>> bands to populate this station list name, otherwise when
>>> travelling you'll never find local radio.
>>>
>>> The "Radioplayer Car" unit, currently in test, does all you
>>> have asked for and more - linking to IP as well (and more
>>> importantly linking back), and letting you tune by station
>>> name and logo.
>>> https://media.info/radio/stations/two-lochs-radio tells me
>>> that you are on Radioplayer, so you'll benefit when that is
>>> available for sale later this year.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, I cannot comprehend why anyone wouldn't be on
>>> Radioplayer, I must say: its the R&D department for the
>>> whole of UK radio.
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> On Sat, 5 Sep 2015 18:17 Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk
>>> <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>
>>> //The reason RDS names aren't used as a method of tuning
>>> is that RDS isn't ubiquitous in the US, and in Europe
>>> many stations use animated and dynamic RDS names, which
>>> breaks this stuff.//
>>>
>>> I can't see any great force in that as a reason for not
>>> using station name tuning by default. The RDS radio
>>> market is clearly big enough to support it as an option
>>> perfectly economically in the rest of world without
>>> needing to work in the US. More to the point, I don't
>>> think DAB is exactly ubiquitous in the US either is it?
>>> And yet we have a market full of DAB sets!
>>>
>>> Same sort of thing applies to push button tuning on AM -
>>> the US uses 10kHz channel spacing and we use 9kHz, so
>>> radio circuits/chipsets in portables have to support
>>> both. Anyway, a radio that can tune by station list can
>>> still be operated by frequency if it finds itself in a
>>> non-RDS region, so it can only be a gain or neutral, not
>>> negative.
>>>
>>> Animated and dynamic RDS names do not break tuning by
>>> name - as I said, my car can tune by station list, and
>>> it works perfectly well in continental countries that
>>> use more advanced techniques - the station list shows a
>>> static shot of the 8 character name which is usually
>>> perfectly recognizable. And again, if not, you can fall
>>> back to frequency tuning. Tuning by station name doesn't
>>> have to be the only mode available, but it should (IMO)
>>> be available and the default option for a radio to get
>>> the tick mark.
>>>
>>> The IP stuff is a further argument, and perfectly fine,
>>> but no bearing on my suggestion that for DAB/FM radios
>>> sold for the UK market should have been required to
>>> offer tuning by station name across FM & DAB.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>> On 05 September 2015 at 15:59 James Cridland
>>>> <james at cridland.net <mailto:james at cridland.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The reason RDS names aren't used as a method of tuning
>>>> is that RDS isn't ubiquitous in the US, and in Europe
>>>> many stations use animated and dynamic RDS names, which
>>>> breaks this stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Neither RDS nor DAB offer handoff to IP, nor direct
>>>> links to other IP-based resources either, so they're
>>>> not, by themselves, future-proof.
>>>>
>>>> RadioDNS provides that mapping, which makes radio
>>>> receivers significantly more user friendly.
>>>>
>>>> IP is four times smaller than DAB use here in the UK,
>>>> and is growing slower as well. (Indeed, growth appears
>>>> to have stagnated for most.)
>>>>
>>>> The future is multi-platform, and better sets. Sadly,
>>>> existing broadcasters aren't entirely on-board.
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> http://james.cridland.net - get my weekly newsletter
>> https://media.info - the media information website
>>
>> Tel: +44 7941 251474 | @jamescridland
>>
>
> --
>
> http://james.cridland.net - get my weekly newsletter
> https://media.info - the media information website
>
> Tel: +44 7941 251474 | @jamescridland
>
>
>
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