[cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
Office - ccr-fm
office at ccr-fm.co.uk
Fri Oct 29 12:05:18 BST 2010
Sorry guys and all
Totally, totally, absolutely disagree disagree disagree ......... and proud to disagree and proud to not be pussyfootying around all the debate. It also appears that some of my e-mails don't actually hit the message board. I don't mind if no one agrees with what I write, no issues there ... but in a democracy we have freedom of speech.
Never ever have I said that someone should not be paid for their talent and their product .... artists should. But NOT by a load of parasites who are on a money making racket.
There should be NO PRS and NO PPL ....... it is a joke. The record companies get paid and so do the artists, writers etc from the sale of the product ------------ end of ! if I want to buy it I do so .... if I don't want to buy it ... I leave it on the shelf.
Maybe I buy it and just want to listen to it at home .... perhaps I don't want to subject our listeners to it ?? I tell you what, ask George Michael, Robbie Williams or Rihanna to give me a bell .... they can ask me '' How come you are not playing our records ?'' I'll reply ... it'll cost you 5p each time we play it ........ in otherwords, I don't give PRS 5p, they give us 5p ........... PRS should be set up to collect money FROM THE RECORD COMPANIES and not the bleedin' system that we've got at the moment whereby it works ar................se about ........t ............it
In my eyes it is a joke and my opinion will not change. We are all doing a favour to each other .... without music we struggle as a station, without the stations -tv etc the artists struggle ........ THAT SHOULD BE THE ARRANGEMENT ! someone is taking the michael and all of our bow-ing and kow-towing won't change it.
I'm investigating at the moment ...... Ians suggestion of going through the correct channels (law / government etc) it's worth a nosey I reckon.
If and just if ... this did get changed, a lot of the people on this message board would soon do a U-Turn ........ nevermind keeping your heads down low, stand up and be counted.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Tony Bailey
Sent: 29 October 2010 10:36
To: Colin Pearse
Cc: 'cma-l'
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
I think most people took the view eventually that music RSLs were only
cost effective if someone else was paying for them (often the DJs)! A
rummage in cobweb corner reveals that in 1989 the disc stampers daily
fees were AM 50mw (4-12 hrs) £10-25; AM 1w £12-27; FM £15-30. All +VAT.
It was described as a "concessionary tariff"!
Tony Bailey
Colin Pearse wrote:
> Hi Nick.................and everyone else! Let me add a bit of
> attitude to this "can of worms"................ Lets go back to
> basics. Most of you will know to your cost that RSL's were just so
> much more expensive than full time community licenses and you might
> well grind your teeth if you've ever had to write the cheques out to
> cover these. At two and a half to three grand music licensing for
> doing 28 days I've always wondered why no one including the CMA has
> challenged the fees that are charged. If you run a community station
> on a very modest budget your fees might typically be a fraction of
> this. As has been pointed out the licensing system in this country is
> completely mad! Why are RSL's hit so hard, simple, because they are
> a "soft touch", "a sitting duck" on that ever growing pile of money
> the music licensers hope to rake in as the number of radio services
> grow ever larger to the point where they outnumber the possible
> number of listeners! Why has The Office of Fair Trading never taken
> an interest? I would suggest that something to that effect will
> happen..............eventually. Lets take some simple examples of
> fairness........No discount for AM?.......How about a third of the
> bandwidth then have a 66% discount..........Double the number of
> radio stations then halve the fees that are paid in each case and so
> on so if we go back a few years with far fewer stations and cap the
> "licence fee pot"...................do the arithmatic because by this
> time they would probably be paying the radio stations to play the
> material not the other way around. Don't get me wrong in that its
> quite right for artists to receive a fair remuneration for their work
> however many of these would agree that radio airplay, paid for or
> not, made their careers take off. Its not suprising to assume
> therfore that many aspiring artists would quite happily pay to have
> their material aired. Having done so many fundraising RSL's over the
> last 15 years I hate to think how much more money we might have given
> away to good causes had the licensing system been fairer and I will
> include "the wider licensing regime"wiithin that comment. Although we
> are not to be on the air for some time yet my attitude is that small
> and low cost is beautiful. Doing this full time with a low, low cost
> base is going to be so cheap compared to RSL's and will in any case
> hardly will affect your number of possible listeners. Perhaps we can
> start a scheme so that radio stations tell their listeners at any
> particular time how much it cost to play any particular record. When
> spending 5p for a 45 at a car boot sale we did one time offer our
> listener the information that it had just cost us 5p by way of a fee
> to play it. Perhaps the length of the offering should figure in the
> calculation of the fee after all longer tracks would be deemed to be
> better value for money if they were all the same price. I use my
> wife as an illustration here in that she has admitted that she bought
> Dylans "Like a Rolling Stone" on the grounds of length rather than
> artistic content!
>
> Best Regards, Keep it small and cheap!! Colin Pearse - Susy
> Radio - Redhill ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Mallinson To:
> 'cma-l' Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [cma-l]
> Community Radio Royalties
>
>
> I totally agree with Ian, we should not be profiting from other
> peoples work and should pay the PRS/PPL …… but is anyone in community
> radio making a profit, or even earning a living from it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk
> [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Ian
> Hickling Sent: 28 October 2010 08:47 To: office at ccr-fm.co.uk; Bob
> Tyler; cma-l Subject: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
>
>
>
>
> It's simple Nick. Putting aside all the flamboyance and emotion, by
> playing music to an audience and thereby gaining in one form or
> another, you're profiting by using someone else's property - talent -
> without direct permission. That's theft. You may have bought the CD,
> but you haven't bought the right to make money out of it for youself
> without giving back some to the owner. You'll find that written down
> officially - usually on the disc and/or the accompanying packaging
> material. That's embodied in the Law of Copyright. So you pay an
> agent who in theory returns a proportion of your money to the artist
> while taking a commission. That's a perfectly normal buiness
> practice. If you're in the entertainment industry, you are duty bound
> to be aware of that. If you don't like it - do something else. If you
> want to change it - set about it in the democratic way through
> Parliament, which made the rule in the first place. If you choose to
> go against it, prepare to take the consequences. Like I said - it's
> simple.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: office at ccr-fm.co.uk To: bobtyler at btinternet.com;
> cma-l at commedia.org.uk Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:41:38 +0100 Subject:
> Re: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
>
> Dear All
>
>
>
> How about collecting nothing !? that sounds about fair to me. Sell
> your records, sell your music, sell your talent and we will help to
> promote that and help you sell your product ………………….. for God sake,
> don’t bleedin’ well charge me for doing so ??
>
>
>
> I’ll say it again …………. Who is doing who the favour ?
>
>
>
> Hyperthetically -------------------- supposing all TV and Radio was
> speech based ?? they wouldn’t get anything then ………… and
> furthermore, their record sales would be about 10% of what they are
> now coz’ no one would hear them.
>
>
>
> I tell you ………………. IT’S A MONEY MAKING RACKET AGAIN ! We are
> surrounded by them. And we keep giving in to them ………… and accepting
> it ….. WHY ?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> Am I just sounding like a grumpy old man always complaining ??
> I’m not really like this, but, one or two things revolving around
> and relating to radio really do get my gander up !
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: ROBERT TYLER [mailto:bobtyler at btinternet.com] Sent: 27 October
> 2010 14:57 To: Office - ccr-fm Subject: Re: [cma-l] Community Radio
> Royalties
>
>
>
> I don’t know what the rates applied to CR are but think they are
> fairly nominal and more or less blanket charges.
>
>
>
> The performance and mechanical right goes to the composer. Royalties
> through phonographic performance (ppl) generally go to the record
> companies. PPL does distribute some 20% of revenues (approx) to
> indies through a society call AIM. (see phonographic performance ltd
> annual accounts on their website).
>
>
>
> Trouble when considering non mainstream music and hundreds of unknown
> artists overseas, a system geared to collecting for the big artists
> can fail. In my experience, the reality is that any monies to lesser
> known or even overseas artists, would be minimal. Say a few pounds
> when compared to say what TakeThat will collect in the next 2 years.
> By nature the latter being easy to collect and distribute.
>
>
>
> The system is what we have and yes has failings but both societies
> might well undertake a joint collection mechanism in the future.
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 27/10/10, Office - ccr-fm <office at ccr-fm.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> From: Office - ccr-fm <office at ccr-fm.co.uk> Subject: Re: [cma-l]
> Community Radio Royalties To: "'Ian Hickling'"
> <transplanfm at hotmail.com>, "'CMA-L'" <cma-l at commedia.org.uk> Date:
> Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 11:15
>
> Guess what guys (nongy-nong Nick has got a comment to make on this …
> (surprise surprise?) Looking at things simply and
> in laymans terms …. If we applied this rule to our lives, things
> would be better for all concerned ….. even the authorities.
>
>
>
> Not fully understanding this system??? but rather looking at it as
> yet another bureaucratic nonsense and nightmare, I would like to make
> some observations.
>
>
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but if I go into a shop and I buy a Robbie
> Williams song or Katy Perry’s new single ……. Do those artists receive
> any money from that sale ?? I would argue that they do !
> how much they get after the agents, the record company, the
> advertisers, the sharks, leeches and waterbugs have all had a nibble
> is possibly anyones guess ?? but ……….. that is certainly none of
> my business and quite frankly I couldn’t give a monkeys cuss ! I’ll
> leave them to squabble amongst themselves.
>
>
>
> We are a NOT-FOR-PROFIT venture, and we can prove it ……………….. so
> ……….. the moral of the story is that we ARE NOT making bucks out of
> someone elses talent or hard work ….. we are by the very nature of
> what we do ‘Radio’ helping these guys raise their profile and thus
> promote their music sales.
>
>
>
> Someone may say …….. well what about a pub or a bar and their PRS etc
> ?? I reply …………….. ‘’yes, but there is a huge
> difference between about 70 people in a pub and the potential
> audience that we broadcast to ! as I said recently to the
> gentleman at PRS / PPL ……….. who is doing who the favour ??
> I said to him, that HE SHOULD BE PAYING ME ! AND NOT THE OTHER WAY
> ROUND ! it is yet another legal debacle that gets
> right up my nose.
>
> In fact, some people who stick a song on a jukebox do so because they
> heard it on CCR ?!
>
>
>
> As in this e-mail ping pong some of our fraturnity/brotherhood state
> that they use a lot of speech and a lot of music that ain’t PRS
> associated ……………… WE PAY for most of our music ……………….. perhaps the
> PRS could have a word with sony and the likes to start sending ALL
> their music to us so at least we can save some money aside to pay
> them.
>
>
>
> My view is that I’m paying bloody Robbie Williams (3) (THREE) times !
>
>
>
>
> 1) CCR buys the single = (Robbie receives money)
>
> 2) CCR promotes the single = (Robbie receives profile which =
> more money)
>
> 3) CCR then has to pay dues to the PRS even though we’ve
> promoted it and help sell it ! = (loads o’ money, cheers easy, in the
> back pocket we go !)
>
> Mr Williams has a look at us on the website and sez’ to himself
> ‘’what mugs’’ they buy my record, they promote me and I get
> a nice little tickle as well from royalties
>
>
>
> WHAT A BLEEDIN’ JOKE !……………… this runs along side the fact that we’ve
> got a community fund that is neither use nor ornament, rules that
> have been brought in by Government morons who have got no idea or
> bearing as to what is going on around them, ……….. ie:- absolutely no
> advertising, absolutely no undue prominence ! there’s another
> balls-up by the way ………………… Fred Bloggs the window cleaner gives us a
> donation of a £1000, where as Annie Goggins the Candlestick maker
> gives a much smaller donation of £100 …. But we darn’t say thank you
> more times to Fred than Annie because of undue prominence ?? this
> is NOT undue prominence, it is DUE PROMINENCE
>
>
>
> Anyway …………… I’m going off piste again ………………………. The point I am
> making again is this ---------------------
>
>
>
> We are having the peeeee taken out of us ‘big style’ ………. We are
> being laughed at and insulted, we are being bullied and all the
> whinging has to stop. Get your bloody sleeves rolled up and let’s
> have a go as a group ….
>
>
>
> I STILL believe there will be a sympathetic judge somewhere who will
> sway into our camp ………… I have gone through the trading laws with a
> fine tooth comb …. Trust me, there are a hell of a lot of loop-holes
> …………… CCR cannot do it alone.
>
>
>
> With reference to the PRS ……………….. I suggest we tell them to stick
> that as well and either put a bill into them or at least come to
> contra deal. If they want me to pay them then they can firstly send
> me the music free of charge or I’ll buy the music and there is no
> charge for playing it ………………………….. it’s the old same old same old ………
> the goalposts are being shunted around to suit …….. and all the
> favours drop on their side of the court
>
> Why ? because we’re all a load of mugs, that’s why ……….
>
>
>
> Finally, so that people understand where I’m coming from ……. A
> Commercial Radio Station / a Night Club / a Pub / a Cruise Ship ………….
> They are all MONEY MAKING RACKETS AND PROFIT MAKING VENTURES …….
> Possibly they should pay ?! WE ARE NOT !
> AND WE ARE DIFFERENT !
>
>
>
> Oh …….. and absolutely finally ………… Commercial Radio gets all its
> music for free from the record companies ….. they class us as to
> small, so we don’t get any.Perhaps the CMA could put them right on
> that one as well, and get the sony’s etc to send it to them, for them
> to send it to us ………….. I think a little word in Mr Sony’s ear ‘’ 217
> Community Stations in the Country’’ I actually don’t
> think we are small at all ??! we will then have the
> spare money to pay Mr PRS.
>
>
>
> ‘’Simples eeeek’’ said the meerkat
> compair the market <> we’re getting a raw deal at the moment !
>
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk
> [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Ian
> Hickling Sent: 27 October 2010 08:42 To: Peter Vautier; Trevor
> Lockwood Cc: cma-l Subject: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
>
>
>
>
> I'm in a cleft stick here. I believe that people who make music
> should be properly rewarded for their art - but at the same time the
> present system appears to be illogical, secretive and unfair. Has any
> broadcaster ever told the societies that they're not paying their
> exhorbitant arbitrary and unexplained fees and to go ahead and sue?
> Bill will know that only last week he managed to ensure that a new
> broadcaster was only charged pro-rata for two months' royalties when
> the organisation concerned had insisted - would you beleive - on a
> full 12-month fee for two months' activity. Peter raises the point
> about using music from other countries and how Royalties are and
> should be paid. As I understand it - and I may be quite wrong - there
> are parallel agreements throughout the world with other royalty
> collection agencies. We provide facilities for stations serving Asian
> communities and they never ever pay PRS, MCPS and PPL as far as I can
> see. If English-language stations in the UK are required to pay, then
> why are these equally-licensed broadcasters apparently exempted
> because their music orignated in another country? Why doesn't Ofcom
> collect these royalties - if indeed they are fully authenticated in
> Law - at the same time as the Licence Fees?
>
> Ian Hickling Partner transplan UK
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: admin at londonhuayu.co.uk Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:16:28 +0100
> To: trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk CC: cma-l at commedia.org.uk Subject:
> Re: [cma-l] PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ - your
> feedback required
>
> I'd second that - a very large proportion of our music is from
> Mainland China , which isn't under the PRS/PPL license.
>
> It would also be good if these artists actually got paid royalties
> for their work, since it is so hard to make money from music in China
> , and since the record companies over there have been so supportive
> by giving us interviews, etc.
>
>
>
> Peter Vautier
>
> London Chinese Radio
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:56 AM, <trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> I was not aware of any stated policy about the CMA and PRS
> relationship.
>
>
>
> In the past I've wondered whether CMA is now large enough to consider
> creating its own version of PRS, working with that organisation, but
> achieving economies of scale by having one application/funding
> stream.
>
>
>
> My real concern with the present system is that at Felixstowe Radio
> we have a large speech content, and we also play many tracks from
> artists that are not yet registered with PRS. Our output is not
> specifically recorded by PPL - so we pay them more than we should,
> and our artists don't get to sniff the barmaid's apron.
>
>
>
> Is it true that the PRS boss earns £600K?
>
>
>
> Trevor
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Bill Best
>
> Sent: 26/10/10 10:38 AM
>
> To: cma-l at commedia.org.uk
>
> Subject: [cma-l] PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ -
> your feedback required
>
>
>
> Hi Jaqui's not available today to address the issues that some of
> you have recently brought up on the list as she's attending a meeting
> at DCMS to represent the sector to the Digital Radio Marketing Group.
> Yesterday Jaqui was at the "Community Radio and Digitally Networked
> Business" workshop in
>
> Port Talbot and met a number of CMA members there. On 15 October
> Jaqui and I attended a meeting at PRS for Music to discuss issues
> around music licensing for the sector - in particular about MCPS
> rates which have hitherto not yet been charged. PRS will feedback to
> the CMA about MCPS rates when the relevant PRS board documentation is
> completed later this week. I'm delighted to say that talks with PRS
> were productive and the CMA has re-established a positive working
> dialogue with PRS. In the meantime PRS are currently reviewing their
> Community Radio documentation in advance of refreshing it with the
> new licence information and updated PRS rates. Are there any
> frequently asked questions or items that station managers are
> particularly interested in that require attention or further
> explanation? The PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ is
> here: http://bit.ly/dwnsAF Please get back to me with any feedback.
> Regards Bill -- Community Media Association
> http://www.commedia.org.uk/ http://twitter.com/community_media
> Facebook Fans: http://bit.ly/cog8n5
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>
> 野火烧不尽，春风吹又生
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