[cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
Tony Bailey
studio at ravensoundradio.co.uk
Fri Oct 29 10:35:31 BST 2010
I think most people took the view eventually that music RSLs were only
cost effective if someone else was paying for them (often the DJs)! A
rummage in cobweb corner reveals that in 1989 the disc stampers daily
fees were AM 50mw (4-12 hrs) £10-25; AM 1w £12-27; FM £15-30. All +VAT.
It was described as a "concessionary tariff"!
Tony Bailey
Colin Pearse wrote:
> Hi Nick.................and everyone else! Let me add a bit of
> attitude to this "can of worms"................ Lets go back to
> basics. Most of you will know to your cost that RSL's were just so
> much more expensive than full time community licenses and you might
> well grind your teeth if you've ever had to write the cheques out to
> cover these. At two and a half to three grand music licensing for
> doing 28 days I've always wondered why no one including the CMA has
> challenged the fees that are charged. If you run a community station
> on a very modest budget your fees might typically be a fraction of
> this. As has been pointed out the licensing system in this country is
> completely mad! Why are RSL's hit so hard, simple, because they are
> a "soft touch", "a sitting duck" on that ever growing pile of money
> the music licensers hope to rake in as the number of radio services
> grow ever larger to the point where they outnumber the possible
> number of listeners! Why has The Office of Fair Trading never taken
> an interest? I would suggest that something to that effect will
> happen..............eventually. Lets take some simple examples of
> fairness........No discount for AM?.......How about a third of the
> bandwidth then have a 66% discount..........Double the number of
> radio stations then halve the fees that are paid in each case and so
> on so if we go back a few years with far fewer stations and cap the
> "licence fee pot"...................do the arithmatic because by this
> time they would probably be paying the radio stations to play the
> material not the other way around. Don't get me wrong in that its
> quite right for artists to receive a fair remuneration for their work
> however many of these would agree that radio airplay, paid for or
> not, made their careers take off. Its not suprising to assume
> therfore that many aspiring artists would quite happily pay to have
> their material aired. Having done so many fundraising RSL's over the
> last 15 years I hate to think how much more money we might have given
> away to good causes had the licensing system been fairer and I will
> include "the wider licensing regime"wiithin that comment. Although we
> are not to be on the air for some time yet my attitude is that small
> and low cost is beautiful. Doing this full time with a low, low cost
> base is going to be so cheap compared to RSL's and will in any case
> hardly will affect your number of possible listeners. Perhaps we can
> start a scheme so that radio stations tell their listeners at any
> particular time how much it cost to play any particular record. When
> spending 5p for a 45 at a car boot sale we did one time offer our
> listener the information that it had just cost us 5p by way of a fee
> to play it. Perhaps the length of the offering should figure in the
> calculation of the fee after all longer tracks would be deemed to be
> better value for money if they were all the same price. I use my
> wife as an illustration here in that she has admitted that she bought
> Dylans "Like a Rolling Stone" on the grounds of length rather than
> artistic content!
>
> Best Regards, Keep it small and cheap!! Colin Pearse - Susy
> Radio - Redhill ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Mallinson To:
> 'cma-l' Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [cma-l]
> Community Radio Royalties
>
>
> I totally agree with Ian, we should not be profiting from other
> peoples work and should pay the PRS/PPL …… but is anyone in community
> radio making a profit, or even earning a living from it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk
> [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Ian
> Hickling Sent: 28 October 2010 08:47 To: office at ccr-fm.co.uk; Bob
> Tyler; cma-l Subject: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
>
>
>
>
> It's simple Nick. Putting aside all the flamboyance and emotion, by
> playing music to an audience and thereby gaining in one form or
> another, you're profiting by using someone else's property - talent -
> without direct permission. That's theft. You may have bought the CD,
> but you haven't bought the right to make money out of it for youself
> without giving back some to the owner. You'll find that written down
> officially - usually on the disc and/or the accompanying packaging
> material. That's embodied in the Law of Copyright. So you pay an
> agent who in theory returns a proportion of your money to the artist
> while taking a commission. That's a perfectly normal buiness
> practice. If you're in the entertainment industry, you are duty bound
> to be aware of that. If you don't like it - do something else. If you
> want to change it - set about it in the democratic way through
> Parliament, which made the rule in the first place. If you choose to
> go against it, prepare to take the consequences. Like I said - it's
> simple.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: office at ccr-fm.co.uk To: bobtyler at btinternet.com;
> cma-l at commedia.org.uk Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:41:38 +0100 Subject:
> Re: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
>
> Dear All
>
>
>
> How about collecting nothing !? that sounds about fair to me. Sell
> your records, sell your music, sell your talent and we will help to
> promote that and help you sell your product ………………….. for God sake,
> don’t bleedin’ well charge me for doing so ??
>
>
>
> I’ll say it again …………. Who is doing who the favour ?
>
>
>
> Hyperthetically -------------------- supposing all TV and Radio was
> speech based ?? they wouldn’t get anything then ………… and
> furthermore, their record sales would be about 10% of what they are
> now coz’ no one would hear them.
>
>
>
> I tell you ………………. IT’S A MONEY MAKING RACKET AGAIN ! We are
> surrounded by them. And we keep giving in to them ………… and accepting
> it ….. WHY ?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> Am I just sounding like a grumpy old man always complaining ??
> I’m not really like this, but, one or two things revolving around
> and relating to radio really do get my gander up !
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: ROBERT TYLER [mailto:bobtyler at btinternet.com] Sent: 27 October
> 2010 14:57 To: Office - ccr-fm Subject: Re: [cma-l] Community Radio
> Royalties
>
>
>
> I don’t know what the rates applied to CR are but think they are
> fairly nominal and more or less blanket charges.
>
>
>
> The performance and mechanical right goes to the composer. Royalties
> through phonographic performance (ppl) generally go to the record
> companies. PPL does distribute some 20% of revenues (approx) to
> indies through a society call AIM. (see phonographic performance ltd
> annual accounts on their website).
>
>
>
> Trouble when considering non mainstream music and hundreds of unknown
> artists overseas, a system geared to collecting for the big artists
> can fail. In my experience, the reality is that any monies to lesser
> known or even overseas artists, would be minimal. Say a few pounds
> when compared to say what TakeThat will collect in the next 2 years.
> By nature the latter being easy to collect and distribute.
>
>
>
> The system is what we have and yes has failings but both societies
> might well undertake a joint collection mechanism in the future.
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 27/10/10, Office - ccr-fm <office at ccr-fm.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> From: Office - ccr-fm <office at ccr-fm.co.uk> Subject: Re: [cma-l]
> Community Radio Royalties To: "'Ian Hickling'"
> <transplanfm at hotmail.com>, "'CMA-L'" <cma-l at commedia.org.uk> Date:
> Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 11:15
>
> Guess what guys (nongy-nong Nick has got a comment to make on this …
> (surprise surprise?) Looking at things simply and
> in laymans terms …. If we applied this rule to our lives, things
> would be better for all concerned ….. even the authorities.
>
>
>
> Not fully understanding this system??? but rather looking at it as
> yet another bureaucratic nonsense and nightmare, I would like to make
> some observations.
>
>
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but if I go into a shop and I buy a Robbie
> Williams song or Katy Perry’s new single ……. Do those artists receive
> any money from that sale ?? I would argue that they do !
> how much they get after the agents, the record company, the
> advertisers, the sharks, leeches and waterbugs have all had a nibble
> is possibly anyones guess ?? but ……….. that is certainly none of
> my business and quite frankly I couldn’t give a monkeys cuss ! I’ll
> leave them to squabble amongst themselves.
>
>
>
> We are a NOT-FOR-PROFIT venture, and we can prove it ……………….. so
> ……….. the moral of the story is that we ARE NOT making bucks out of
> someone elses talent or hard work ….. we are by the very nature of
> what we do ‘Radio’ helping these guys raise their profile and thus
> promote their music sales.
>
>
>
> Someone may say …….. well what about a pub or a bar and their PRS etc
> ?? I reply …………….. ‘’yes, but there is a huge
> difference between about 70 people in a pub and the potential
> audience that we broadcast to ! as I said recently to the
> gentleman at PRS / PPL ……….. who is doing who the favour ??
> I said to him, that HE SHOULD BE PAYING ME ! AND NOT THE OTHER WAY
> ROUND ! it is yet another legal debacle that gets
> right up my nose.
>
> In fact, some people who stick a song on a jukebox do so because they
> heard it on CCR ?!
>
>
>
> As in this e-mail ping pong some of our fraturnity/brotherhood state
> that they use a lot of speech and a lot of music that ain’t PRS
> associated ……………… WE PAY for most of our music ……………….. perhaps the
> PRS could have a word with sony and the likes to start sending ALL
> their music to us so at least we can save some money aside to pay
> them.
>
>
>
> My view is that I’m paying bloody Robbie Williams (3) (THREE) times !
>
>
>
>
> 1) CCR buys the single = (Robbie receives money)
>
> 2) CCR promotes the single = (Robbie receives profile which =
> more money)
>
> 3) CCR then has to pay dues to the PRS even though we’ve
> promoted it and help sell it ! = (loads o’ money, cheers easy, in the
> back pocket we go !)
>
> Mr Williams has a look at us on the website and sez’ to himself
> ‘’what mugs’’ they buy my record, they promote me and I get
> a nice little tickle as well from royalties
>
>
>
> WHAT A BLEEDIN’ JOKE !……………… this runs along side the fact that we’ve
> got a community fund that is neither use nor ornament, rules that
> have been brought in by Government morons who have got no idea or
> bearing as to what is going on around them, ……….. ie:- absolutely no
> advertising, absolutely no undue prominence ! there’s another
> balls-up by the way ………………… Fred Bloggs the window cleaner gives us a
> donation of a £1000, where as Annie Goggins the Candlestick maker
> gives a much smaller donation of £100 …. But we darn’t say thank you
> more times to Fred than Annie because of undue prominence ?? this
> is NOT undue prominence, it is DUE PROMINENCE
>
>
>
> Anyway …………… I’m going off piste again ………………………. The point I am
> making again is this ---------------------
>
>
>
> We are having the peeeee taken out of us ‘big style’ ………. We are
> being laughed at and insulted, we are being bullied and all the
> whinging has to stop. Get your bloody sleeves rolled up and let’s
> have a go as a group ….
>
>
>
> I STILL believe there will be a sympathetic judge somewhere who will
> sway into our camp ………… I have gone through the trading laws with a
> fine tooth comb …. Trust me, there are a hell of a lot of loop-holes
> …………… CCR cannot do it alone.
>
>
>
> With reference to the PRS ……………….. I suggest we tell them to stick
> that as well and either put a bill into them or at least come to
> contra deal. If they want me to pay them then they can firstly send
> me the music free of charge or I’ll buy the music and there is no
> charge for playing it ………………………….. it’s the old same old same old ………
> the goalposts are being shunted around to suit …….. and all the
> favours drop on their side of the court
>
> Why ? because we’re all a load of mugs, that’s why ……….
>
>
>
> Finally, so that people understand where I’m coming from ……. A
> Commercial Radio Station / a Night Club / a Pub / a Cruise Ship ………….
> They are all MONEY MAKING RACKETS AND PROFIT MAKING VENTURES …….
> Possibly they should pay ?! WE ARE NOT !
> AND WE ARE DIFFERENT !
>
>
>
> Oh …….. and absolutely finally ………… Commercial Radio gets all its
> music for free from the record companies ….. they class us as to
> small, so we don’t get any.Perhaps the CMA could put them right on
> that one as well, and get the sony’s etc to send it to them, for them
> to send it to us ………….. I think a little word in Mr Sony’s ear ‘’ 217
> Community Stations in the Country’’ I actually don’t
> think we are small at all ??! we will then have the
> spare money to pay Mr PRS.
>
>
>
> ‘’Simples eeeek’’ said the meerkat
> compair the market <> we’re getting a raw deal at the moment !
>
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk
> [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Ian
> Hickling Sent: 27 October 2010 08:42 To: Peter Vautier; Trevor
> Lockwood Cc: cma-l Subject: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
>
>
>
>
> I'm in a cleft stick here. I believe that people who make music
> should be properly rewarded for their art - but at the same time the
> present system appears to be illogical, secretive and unfair. Has any
> broadcaster ever told the societies that they're not paying their
> exhorbitant arbitrary and unexplained fees and to go ahead and sue?
> Bill will know that only last week he managed to ensure that a new
> broadcaster was only charged pro-rata for two months' royalties when
> the organisation concerned had insisted - would you beleive - on a
> full 12-month fee for two months' activity. Peter raises the point
> about using music from other countries and how Royalties are and
> should be paid. As I understand it - and I may be quite wrong - there
> are parallel agreements throughout the world with other royalty
> collection agencies. We provide facilities for stations serving Asian
> communities and they never ever pay PRS, MCPS and PPL as far as I can
> see. If English-language stations in the UK are required to pay, then
> why are these equally-licensed broadcasters apparently exempted
> because their music orignated in another country? Why doesn't Ofcom
> collect these royalties - if indeed they are fully authenticated in
> Law - at the same time as the Licence Fees?
>
> Ian Hickling Partner transplan UK
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: admin at londonhuayu.co.uk Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:16:28 +0100
> To: trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk CC: cma-l at commedia.org.uk Subject:
> Re: [cma-l] PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ - your
> feedback required
>
> I'd second that - a very large proportion of our music is from
> Mainland China , which isn't under the PRS/PPL license.
>
> It would also be good if these artists actually got paid royalties
> for their work, since it is so hard to make money from music in China
> , and since the record companies over there have been so supportive
> by giving us interviews, etc.
>
>
>
> Peter Vautier
>
> London Chinese Radio
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:56 AM, <trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> I was not aware of any stated policy about the CMA and PRS
> relationship.
>
>
>
> In the past I've wondered whether CMA is now large enough to consider
> creating its own version of PRS, working with that organisation, but
> achieving economies of scale by having one application/funding
> stream.
>
>
>
> My real concern with the present system is that at Felixstowe Radio
> we have a large speech content, and we also play many tracks from
> artists that are not yet registered with PRS. Our output is not
> specifically recorded by PPL - so we pay them more than we should,
> and our artists don't get to sniff the barmaid's apron.
>
>
>
> Is it true that the PRS boss earns £600K?
>
>
>
> Trevor
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Bill Best
>
> Sent: 26/10/10 10:38 AM
>
> To: cma-l at commedia.org.uk
>
> Subject: [cma-l] PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ -
> your feedback required
>
>
>
> Hi Jaqui's not available today to address the issues that some of
> you have recently brought up on the list as she's attending a meeting
> at DCMS to represent the sector to the Digital Radio Marketing Group.
> Yesterday Jaqui was at the "Community Radio and Digitally Networked
> Business" workshop in
>
> Port Talbot and met a number of CMA members there. On 15 October
> Jaqui and I attended a meeting at PRS for Music to discuss issues
> around music licensing for the sector - in particular about MCPS
> rates which have hitherto not yet been charged. PRS will feedback to
> the CMA about MCPS rates when the relevant PRS board documentation is
> completed later this week. I'm delighted to say that talks with PRS
> were productive and the CMA has re-established a positive working
> dialogue with PRS. In the meantime PRS are currently reviewing their
> Community Radio documentation in advance of refreshing it with the
> new licence information and updated PRS rates. Are there any
> frequently asked questions or items that station managers are
> particularly interested in that require attention or further
> explanation? The PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ is
> here: http://bit.ly/dwnsAF Please get back to me with any feedback.
> Regards Bill -- Community Media Association
> http://www.commedia.org.uk/ http://twitter.com/community_media
> Facebook Fans: http://bit.ly/cog8n5
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