[cma-l] Community Radio Music Royalties

Thu Oct 28 11:43:50 BST 2010

Steve and all

Your comments are not wrong ………….. and guess what? ….. that job that you used to do in the late 80’s early 90’s ?? I’m guessing ?    I used to do at Piccadilly in the late 70’s (I’m 50)            so I know exactly where you are coming from. In fact, in the seventies it was even worse … you had to write down every single bit of detail.

Mmm – Needle time      ------     I remember that !

Also, I am not disagreeing with the general rate that the CMA have organised for us to pay ……………………… however !     that is NOT my point. We shouldn’t be paying anything !                                any organisation or person that is not-for-profit shouldn’t pay. I would even argue that profit makers shouldn’t pay either. It is a simple money making racket that some genius thought up back in the 1920’s and Mr Joe public has been subserviant to it ever since.

I’ll state my case again. If I buy a car, I give Skoda / Fiat (whoever) my money …………… I don’t pay them royalties everytime I drive it. Likewise with a suit ….. I don’t pay royalties whenever I wear it. If I am good enough to BUY/PURCHASE their goods / records / talent etc ………… that’s it !              don’t bloody well come back for anymore.

Or, as I have said ………… the PRS can send us ALL the music of the people they send their money to (FREE)   and then we’ll pay the royalties. Paying both is an absolute rip-off, it is wrong and not acceptable …………… it’s a money making racket and if people object or refuse they become labelled as a criminal ……… I ain’t a criminal, I just like things fair and not biased.

PRS / PPL etc is a complete and utter joke of a process and people should stop accepting it.

In fact at the moment, they are always mithering us every quarter about listener hours and audience etc etc (this is for the internet me thinks ?)     I contact Bill at Canstream and he kindly sends us the info’ ………………… it’s all a load of yet another bureaucratic nonsense …………    it’s all swings and roundabouts because some months we have more speech based programmes but there is a clause in there that if the hours or figures go over a certain number, we get billed more. The fact is, we may go over, but we ain’t playing music.

The whole bleedin’ thing wants scrapping and those in their Ivory Towers can go out and get a proper job ! instead of riding along on the back of other peoples backs, stresses and worries.

Too many subserviants in this sector bow-ing and kow-towing to anyone in a bloody suit ………….. Adolf Hitler wore a suit …… always remember that.

We are getting kicked from ALL sides.

By the way ………… possibly a bone of contention, but worth asking as I genuinely do not know the answer ….. so please forgive me.

If we (the sector) pay a flat rate fee and we don’t have to put down needle time, and who played what and when, then PRS / PPL have to assume that we’ve played Take That / Killers / Amy Winehouse / Madonna / Madness / Local Artists / Gerry Rafferty / Rolling Stones …………….. errrr     <>     GARY GLITTER !             Does he still receive a tickle ??????              because UNDER MY SYSTEM whereby the artists/writers etc only receive money from the sales then Mr Glitter might find himself paying a visit to the soup kitchen this evening ………………………….. in fact there is a question to ask PRS …… I’ll do it myself ………… is he getting any royalties ??    obviously he isn’t from the big-wigs as they don’t play his songs, but in our neck of the woods under the present system surely one has to presume that PRS are paying everyone ??  assuming that we actually play Gary Glitter     just a thought that’s all ----------

Can anyone shed any light on this please?   Or am I waffling again ??

Here’s one for you going back to the coverage discussion. Our local commercial clots are silk …. They have always treated us as competition and at times the treatment has been quite hostile. We can’t fight back because we are handicapped and saddled with nonsense …. So we simply have to stand there and take the barrage …. We’ve now got the other clowns up the road ‘Imagine’ with their brand new showy offy vehicle’ which is all over our area like a rash at the moment. There studios and offices and transmitters have been moved and they are now booming into our area like a crack of thunder. We now got two wolves at the door. They have now devised a sales diamond as they call it and they have already nicked the Wilmslow christmas lights switch on from us. These light switch ons we did for nothing after the other lot about 4 years ago ripped them off and nailed their hats on ……. We have now been dropped and shafted.

Our signal around the area is garbage and we are laden and burdoned with ads restrictions etc etc. We are sadly and quite insultingly viewed as a bit of a mickey mouse outfit when actually we are not !   we are in fact as good as the next man …. But we have no clout ………………………… what is mickey mouse is everything that is going on around us :-

1)       Commercial stations whinging and crying to ministers

2)       Commercial stations moving the goalpost constantly changing their formats, moving transmitters etc at the drop of a hat

3)       Ad restrictions

4)       Paying money making racket organisations loads of money that we haven’t got and yet we are not for profit

5)       Having nitsche and minority audiences and then being told by sponsors that they can’t give us money because our audience (perception only) isn’t large enough plus they can’t hear us

6)       Having to go to sponsors in the first place because the fund that is supposed to support us is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike !

7)       Being unable to get charity status because the commision simply don’t understand what we are about …… perhaps the CMA could have a word ?? and get charity status for the whole sector

8)       Having to deal with that much crap and bureaucracy that the job which we are supposed to doing doesn’t get done as we are faffing around doing everything else.

I’ll say it again ………. Community radio is fantastic, it’s fandabby-dozy …… but what goes on around it isn’t and it needs a serious re-think ……….. and quickly. If people won’t listen and won’t be reasonable then there are no other options than to get in the boxing ring.

By the way, have we heard from Ofcom yet when they will be sending everyone the £300 each from the next round in the community fund ….. as no one on the message board has objected or come up with a valid reason as to why this shouldn’t be the case. Perhaps they are afraid of sticking their head up out of the trench and showing their true colours.

Our organisation is all about fairness, community and EQUAL opportunities ………….. people receiving different amounts of money when we are all doing the same thing is simply not acceptable, especially when it is a fund set up by government and it’s tax payers money. I’d be happy with £300 if everyone else gets the same. Saves us hours / days / weeks etc filling in forms. We argue and if necessary ‘’fight’’ the case together to get the next amount up to £900 each and then £1,500 each and so on !

Enough moaning again for today …………….. to many hours wasted writing e-mails                       half-term this week so we are OK.

Regards

Nick

  _____  

From: Steve Suttie [mailto:stevensuttie at aol.com] 
Sent: 28 October 2010 00:54
To: Ian Hickling
Cc: Richard Berry; office at ccr-fm.co.uk; cma-l
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Community Radio Music Royalties

Hi, great debate going on here, as ever!

I think that although the rules are very confused, the price that Cr stations pay for playing music is excellent.

Each station needs its music to play, and the costs involved are minimal, considering!

When I was a lad, I was a volunteer at Piccadilly Radio in Manchester.

My main responsibility (apart from finding pens) was to sit with the presenter on air

and log the explicit details of every song played, with the pen I found. When I say explicit details... I mean

every single publication detail listed on the record, from issue number, label, label publication number, composer, 

time played, duration of track, promotion company. Piccadilly needed all this info to send back to the PRS/PPL/ MCPS.

Before all that malarky came in, they only had 9 hours per day of 'needle time' which refers to those old needle things they used

before Itunes came out! Any music played out of 'needle time' had to be royalty free, in fact Piccadilly employed their own band to play 

session music when the needle was used up.

I'm only 34 so we are not talking about a time too long ago. So, in a nutshell - we can play anything we fancy, 

without logging each track, for as long as we want for a few grand a year... Its a good bloody deal! So I think, lets 

focus back on the funding stuff that will make, or break this sector! If we push the music licensing agencies too much, we 

may all be looking for pens again!

Kind Regards

Steve

On 27 Oct 2010, at 15:06, Ian Hickling <transplanfm at hotmail.com> wrote:

If we stick to the underlying principle that musicians should be paid for the use of their work and that more customer exposure implies more benefit, then the logical way to organise the tariff would be by listenership.
Simple enough for stations in Rajar, and not beyond the wit of man to gauge the audience levels of CRs based on their postcode coverage and an agreed proportion of the allied populations. RSLs would pay a standard lump sum based on their allocated power and the population density in their notional coverage.
All collected within the same process used for licensing so you just don't get on air if you don't pay!
The principle of being charged for simply holding and/or copying music as opposed to actually using it is illogical and unfair and should be stopped.

  _____  

From:  <mailto:richard.berry at sunderland.ac.uk> richard.berry at sunderland.ac.uk
To:  <mailto:office at ccr-fm.co.uk> office at ccr-fm.co.uk
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:27:09 +0100
CC:  <mailto:cma-l at commedia.org.uk> cma-l at commedia.org.uk
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties

wow. There's a lot to take in here.  

I agree that the system of music royalties in the UK is a mess. The position in the US is different, it assumes that if a record in played on the radio people will buy it. The perception here in the UK is contrary, it assumes if radio plays a song we won't buy it. It's not helped by the fact that they've still not sorted out how much we - as a sector - should be paying. Clearly, it can't be free but equally sharing a ratecard with commercial radio is patently wrong.

Record companies will supply community radio, they supply us very well and we rarely buy any music. The additional tracks we add, we've bought ourselves and ripped into the playout system. Of course, what record companies want are playlists and since that something that isn't always in our culture then it's not in their interests to send out anything. Of course, if you play local unsigned acts then this is less of an issue - take a look at what Amazing Radio are doing and you'll see

Rich

Richard Berry

Senior Lecturer in Radio Studies

Admissions Tutor

Programme Leader: FdA Community Radio & BA Radio

The David Puttnam Media Centre, St Peters Campus

Sunderland, SR6 0DD

Tel: 0191 515 2239

 <http://www.twitter.com/sunderlandradio> www.twitter.com/sunderlandradio

Web:  <http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/radio> www.sunderland.ac.uk/radio

Tags:  <http://www.delicious.com/richardberry> www.delicious.com/richardberry

Blog:myblogs.sunderland.ac.uk/blogs/radio/

On 27 Oct 2010, at 11:15, Office - ccr-fm wrote:

Guess what guys (nongy-nong Nick has got a comment to make on this … (surprise surprise?)                   Looking at things simply and in laymans terms …. If we applied this rule to our lives, things would be better for all concerned ….. even the authorities.

Not fully understanding this system??? but rather looking at it as yet another bureaucratic nonsense and nightmare, I would like to make some observations.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if I go into a shop and I buy a Robbie Williams song or Katy Perry’s new single ……. Do those artists receive any money from that sale ?? I would argue that they do !                       how much they get after the agents, the record company, the advertisers, the sharks, leeches and waterbugs have all had a nibble is possibly anyones guess ??    but ……….. that is certainly none of my business and quite frankly I couldn’t give a monkeys cuss !  I’ll leave them to squabble amongst themselves.

We are a NOT-FOR-PROFIT venture, and we can prove it ……………….. so ……….. the moral of the story is that we ARE NOT making bucks out of someone elses talent or hard work ….. we are by the very nature of what we do  ‘Radio’   helping these guys raise their profile and thus promote their music sales.

Someone may say …….. well what about a pub or a bar and their PRS etc ??                   I reply …………….. ‘’yes, but there is a huge difference between about 70 people in a pub and the potential audience that we broadcast to !          as I said recently to the gentleman at PRS / PPL ……….. who is doing who the favour ??              I said to him, that HE SHOULD BE PAYING ME !   AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND !                     it is yet another legal debacle that gets right up my nose.

In fact, some people who stick a song on a jukebox do so because they heard it on CCR ?!

As in this e-mail ping pong some of our fraturnity/brotherhood state that they use a lot of speech and a lot of music that ain’t PRS associated ……………… WE PAY for most of our music ……………….. perhaps the PRS could have a word with sony and the likes to start sending ALL their music to us so at least we can save some money aside to pay them.

My view is that I’m paying bloody Robbie Williams (3) (THREE) times !                

1)       CCR buys the single = (Robbie receives money)

2)       CCR promotes the single = (Robbie receives profile which = more money)

3)       CCR then has to pay dues to the PRS even though we’ve promoted it and help sell it ! = (loads o’ money, cheers easy, in the back pocket we go !)   

Mr Williams has a look at us on the website and sez’ to himself        ‘’what mugs’’          they buy my record, they promote me and I get a nice little tickle as well from royalties

WHAT A BLEEDIN’ JOKE !……………… this runs along side the fact that we’ve got a community fund that is neither use nor ornament, rules that have been brought in by Government morons who have got no idea or bearing as to what is going on around them, ……….. ie:- absolutely no advertising, absolutely no undue prominence !      there’s another balls-up by the way ………………… Fred Bloggs the window cleaner gives us a donation of a £1000, where as Annie Goggins the Candlestick maker gives a much smaller donation of £100 …. But we darn’t say thank you more times to Fred than Annie because of undue prominence ??     this is NOT undue prominence, it is DUE PROMINENCE

Anyway …………… I’m going off piste again ………………………. The point I am making again is this ---------------------

We are having the peeeee taken out of us ‘big style’ ………. We are being laughed at and insulted, we are being bullied and all the whinging has to stop. Get your bloody sleeves rolled up and let’s have a go as a group ….

I STILL believe there will be a sympathetic judge somewhere who will sway into our camp ………… I have gone through the trading laws with a fine tooth comb …. Trust me, there are a hell of a lot of loop-holes …………… CCR cannot do it alone.

With reference to the PRS ……………….. I suggest we tell them to stick that as well and either put a bill into them or at least come to contra deal. If they want me to pay them then they can firstly send me the music free of charge or I’ll buy the music and there is no charge for playing it ………………………….. it’s the old same old same old ……… the goalposts are being shunted around to suit …….. and all the favours drop on their side of the court

Why ?              because we’re all a load of mugs, that’s why ……….

Finally, so that people understand where I’m coming from ……. A Commercial Radio Station / a Night Club / a Pub / a Cruise Ship …………. They are all MONEY MAKING RACKETS AND PROFIT MAKING VENTURES ……. Possibly they should pay ?!                            WE ARE NOT !     AND WE ARE DIFFERENT !

Oh …….. and absolutely finally ………… Commercial Radio gets all its music for free from the record companies ….. they class us as to small, so we don’t get any.Perhaps the CMA could put them right on that one as well, and get the sony’s etc to send it to them, for them to send it to us ………….. I think a little word in Mr Sony’s ear ‘’ 217 Community Stations in the Country’’              I actually don’t think we are small at all ??!                 we will then have the spare money to pay Mr PRS.

‘’Simples    eeeek’’     said the meerkat                          compair the market <> we’re getting a raw deal at the moment !      

Nick

  _____  

From:  <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [ <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Ian Hickling
Sent: 27 October 2010 08:42
To: Peter Vautier; Trevor Lockwood
Cc: cma-l
Subject: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties

I'm in a cleft stick here.
I believe that people who make music should be properly rewarded for their art - but at the same time the present system appears to be illogical, secretive and unfair.
Has any broadcaster ever told the societies that they're not paying their exhorbitant arbitrary and unexplained fees and to go ahead and sue?
Bill will know that only last week he managed to ensure that a new broadcaster was only charged pro-rata for two months' royalties when the organisation concerned had insisted - would you beleive - on a full 12-month fee for two months' activity.
Peter raises the point about using music from other countries and how Royalties are and should be paid.
As I understand it - and I may be quite wrong - there are parallel agreements throughout the world with other royalty collection agencies.
We provide facilities for stations serving Asian communities and they never ever pay PRS, MCPS and PPL as far as I can see. 
If English-language stations in the UK are required to pay, then why are these equally-licensed broadcasters apparently exempted because their music orignated in another country?
Why doesn't Ofcom collect these royalties - if indeed they are fully authenticated in Law - at the same time as the Licence Fees?

Ian Hickling
Partner
transplan UK

  _____  

From:  <mailto:admin at londonhuayu.co.uk> admin at londonhuayu.co.uk
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:16:28 +0100
To:  <mailto:trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk> trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk
CC:  <mailto:cma-l at commedia.org.uk> cma-l at commedia.org.uk
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ - your feedback required

I'd second that -  a very large proportion of our music is from Mainland China, which isn't under the PRS/PPL license. 

It would also be good if these artists actually got paid royalties for their work, since it is so hard to make money from music in China, and since the record companies over there have been so supportive by giving us interviews, etc.

Peter Vautier

London Chinese Radio

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:56 AM, < <mailto:trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk> trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk> wrote:

Bill

I was not aware of any stated policy about the CMA and PRS relationship.

In the past I've wondered whether CMA is now large enough to consider creating its own version of PRS, working with that organisation, but achieving economies of scale by having one application/funding stream.

My real concern with the present system is that at Felixstowe Radio we have a large speech content, and we also play many tracks from artists that are not yet registered with PRS. Our output is not specifically recorded by PPL - so we pay them more than we should, and our artists don't get to sniff the barmaid's apron.

Is it true that the PRS boss earns £600K?

Trevor

----- Original Message -----

From: Bill Best

Sent: 26/10/10 10:38 AM

To:  <mailto:cma-l at commedia.org.uk> cma-l at commedia.org.uk

Subject: [cma-l] PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ - your feedback required

Hi  Jaqui's not available today to address the issues that some of you have recently brought up on the list as she's attending a meeting at DCMS to represent the sector to the Digital Radio Marketing Group. Yesterday Jaqui was at the "Community Radio and Digitally Networked Business" workshop in Port Talbot and met a number of CMA members there.  On 15 October Jaqui and I attended a meeting at PRS for Music to discuss issues around music licensing for the sector - in particular about MCPS rates which have hitherto not yet been charged.  PRS will feedback to the CMA about MCPS rates when the relevant PRS board documentation is completed later this week.  I'm delighted to say that talks with PRS were productive and the CMA has re-established a positive working dialogue with PRS.  In the meantime PRS are currently reviewing their Community Radio documentation in advance of refreshing it with the new licence information and updated PRS rates. Are there any frequently asked questions or items that station managers are particularly interested in that require attention or further explanation?  The PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ is here:   <http://bit.ly/dwnsAF> http://bit.ly/dwnsAF  Please get back to me with any feedback.  Regards  Bill --  Community Media Association  <http://www.commedia.org.uk/> http://www.commedia.org.uk/  <http://twitter.com/community_media> http://twitter.com/community_media Facebook Fans:  <http://bit.ly/cog8n5> http://bit.ly/cog8n5 _______________________________________________  cma-l mailing list -  <mailto:cma-l at commedia.org.uk> cma-l at commedia.org.uk  Community Media Association -  <http://www.commedia.org.uk/> www.commedia.org.uk _______________________________________________  To manage your mailing list subscription please visit:  <http://mailman.commedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cma-l> http://mailman.commedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cma-l

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