[cma-l] FW: the pudding
Canalside's The Thread
office at thethread.org.uk
Fri Mar 24 13:54:39 GMT 2017
Dear Everybody
I am mindful of not wanting to be the person who is overloading the message board ….. however, most of my posts are born out of (observations and dare I say frustrations) The frustration is that on most issues we have been here before, and then again and then again and then again. I have over the years had the odd person knocking me for mentioning somethings that have been mentioned before. I would first like to point out that I respect those opinions and I respect the opinions of a couple of people recently who have pointed out that apparently my ‘’’pudding’’’ observation was ‘’’mildly insulting’’’ it wasn’t meant to be, and nor are any other of my posts. I think you might find that the offence and insults tend to come from ‘the actual facts themselves’ which I point out as opposed to from the person who highlights the facts a classic case of ‘’don’t shoot the messenger’’
Where am I going with this you ask?? -------- well I’m drifting towards the ‘’can we get on with it scenario again’’
Not knocking anyone, certainly not Alan, Glyn, Bill, Nigel, Terry whoever ?? discussions and opinions are good …… but, there are proceedings, and they come in 6 stages (I won’t bore you all but I know about these things)
1. Suggestion
2. Discussion
3. End result of discussion. If positive, is this what we we’re trying to achieve? if not what do we do next?
4. Discussion again, realising where we need to be
5. Mandate
6. What next? preferably Action !
Where we as a sector, end up from what I have seen over 14 Years (hence my irritation) is we are very good at getting to Number 2, we’re not bad at sometimes reaching Number 3, and sometimes, but very seldom, we do touch on Number 4 and then it stalls and the wheels come off the Cart.
I would be grateful if no one comes onto the board and says ‘this is mildly insulting’ it isn’t insulting it is a matter of fact, I deal with reality and I deal with facts and I not afraid nor ashamed to point it out and I shall continue to do so until the team decide they have had enough of it, and then I’ll go and crawl back under my Christmas Log 😊
To the matter in hand ………….. some excellent points and observations have been made by all our team and members over the past year or so …. Alan, Paul, Phil, Nigel, Terry, Glyn, Ian, Bill, Dom, Martin etc etc and there are some here in the latest ‘’’pudding’’’ exchange that need noting and then SHIFTING rather swiftly up to Number 6. Bring on the White Sauce and Custard I say.
Alan used a terminology that I have been using for Donkeys years on sales in here ‘’we punch well above our weight’’ and we do ! …. Imagine how hard we could punch if we were joined up. MCA / TSA is a tricky topic in our sector …. Let us just sell it as our Broadcast area and name the Towns / Villages.
I say it again (and by all means use Canalside as an example) James’s analysis with help from Bill was excellent, and very similar to what we have been trying to do …. It’s just you come at it from a different angle ……….. ie:- think of a number, double it, times it 6, take away 8, turn it on its head, give a tickle and kiss and then take away the number you first thought of and = EUREKA. James’s figure and our method landed bang on within about 200 listeners.
We are about 13,000 – 14,000 with about 5000-ish listening at any one time. Our reach is good, because each of us / all of us MUST include the website flow. We actually run 4 websites ….. last year they had a combined hit rate of over 1 Million = Facts again !
You will see where I am coming from when I say that I have been in many a meeting and asked (as no doubt you guys have) how many listeners have you got ? it’s actually part irrelevant, as we get to people who actually aren’t listening to us, and never listen to us.
So, to put this to bed and get to Number 6 this is my view for what it is worth
We don’t need rajar, we don’t want rajar .. in fact we don’t want anything that links us in anyway remotely to what commercial radio is doing
We need our own ‘’’ickle’’’ method …. And James has supplied it. Let us box it up in nice wrapping paper and go out and sell it. It can be linked and attached to all the patter that goes with it. If you are worried about the patter, don’t be, because the garbage I have heard coming out of the mouths of commercial sales wallers over the years would make your hair curl.
Once again for those in the commercial sector who have selective memory loss ……….. when speaking to the DCMS and Ofcom our local Station only had 100,000 potential listeners ………. Same day they are sat in a Car Garage down the road telling them they have 250,000 …. Unfortunately, I may seem stupid, but trust me I’m not ---- you can’t have both. The first figure of course implemented so that WE (Community Radio) could have restrictions placed upon us. And hey presto, 14 Years later, we’ve still got em.
I have no interest in, or respect for commercial radio, and likewise do not wish to go to meetings listening to what they have to say. I suggest others do the same. When they show us some respect and accept that we have a role to play, and on a level playing field then the better it will be for all of us.
The National scheme now boils down to, do we have the people in place who can cut the mustard ? I reckon we do, because I have met them, and I would certainly buy from them as they are nice chaps.
And now to the nitty gritty. We stand or we fall on our results. So let us get on with it …. Ie:- number 6 let us stop going around in circles in the talking shop and put it to the test. We don’t need research nor do we need another b l o o m I n’ consultation ---------
But alas, one final thing re:- the first e-mail from moi’ entitled [ PUDDING ] it was entitled Pudding because I would like us to get to the eating of the Pudding a.s.a.p. so that the proof will be in it. Therefore as I said …. Don’t get to excited, we could go boing ! and go downhill faster than a greased Pig or we could have ‘’Thunderbirds are GO’’ ‘’F.A.B.’’ !!
As I say, if it bombs we haven’t lost anything, nothing ventured nothing gained. I want to remain positive as I am sure all of our sector do, and therefore I am one stage further and now down to my socks awaiting for the leap into the Canal.
Onwards and Upwards … but for Petes sake let’s implement what we have and get on with it.
No offence or insult meant to anyone, not even commercial radio as I hope that just one day we may be able to work together and help each other, I’m merely saying it as it is (or how I see it here in DumptyLand)
Regards
Nick W / Dumpty FM have a good weekend in the Sunshine
From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Associated Broadcast Consultants
Sent: 24 March 2017 11:45
To: The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [cma-l] FW: the pudding
I'm not an expert, but in addition to pure numbers, I think many CR stations can argue that they have better reach into "hard to reach" groups. As such they "should" punch above their weight for national or local Government advertising - not that it happens!
Glyn
On 24 March 2017 at 09:48, Alan Coote <alan.coote at 5digital.co.uk <mailto:alan.coote at 5digital.co.uk> > wrote:
Bill et al,
I’ve been giving this some thought and have exchanged a couple of emails with James off list.
As Let’s Talk Business is one of the larger syndicate shows we need to track our audience across around 100 stations. By the nature of community radio, all traditional mechanisms are a non-starter.
For the purposes of working out a national audience, we get close enough…
The average MCA of a community station is around 35,000 people whereas the average MCA for a commercial station (excluding London FM) is 700,000 = 20 times greater. This means even exceptionally engaged individual community stations with a high share won’t increase a campaigns exposure as much as a moderate commercial station.
We also accept that in most areas the community station will not be the first choice, so their share will be less than the best one or two commercial stations in their market.
This means we use an 8% - 15% reach for established community stations. We often don’t include audience figures for stations who have only been on-air under a year.
We know that commercial stations TSAs are between 20% – 40% higher than their MCA as both are published. And as Ofcom have also published community stations MCA’s, we can derive a proxy TSA for each community station.
We make further adjustments for other factors but these add rigour to the estimation and often become lost in a rounding error.
Finally, when we launch our new show shortly we’ll have an improved system able to give daily daypart estimations. Which absolutely no one has asked for! :)
Kind Regards
Alan
Alan Coote
Email - <mailto:alan.coote at 5digital.co.uk> alan.coote at MonogramMedia.co.uk
Phone - 0800 949 6655
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From: <cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> > on behalf of "bill.best at commedia.org.uk <mailto:bill.best at commedia.org.uk> " <bill.best at commedia.org.uk <mailto:bill.best at commedia.org.uk> >
Reply-To: "cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> " <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> >
Date: Thursday, 23 March 2017 at 14:49
To: "cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> " <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> >
Subject: Re: [cma-l] FW: the pudding
Thanks Glyn.
The CMA is looking into the data / statistical solution that has previously been given some exposure.
Best regards
Bill
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Operations Manager
Community Media Association
http://www.commedia.org.uk
https://twitter.com/community_media
https://facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation
Canstream Internet Radio
http://www.canstream.co.uk
https://twitter.com/canstream
On 23 March 2017 at 14:30, Associated Broadcast Consultants <info at a-bc.co.uk <mailto:info at a-bc.co.uk> > wrote:
I think another problem is that Murphy's law applies here.
Because CR audiences are smaller (no one knows for certain, but let's assume so!), that means they need a larger sample size to get a statistically significant answer for CR than for larger stations.
Thus we are in a situation where something costs much more to deliver, yet we want it for less/free.
Not sure of the solution to that dilemma apart from to "work smarter" - eg: the James Cridland/Media UK solution using Tunin stats etc. If James is not able/willing to host and lobby for that solution, maybe another suitable independent organisation could do it?
https://media.info/ <http://media.info/> uk/radio/data/rajar-vs-tunein
Glyn
On 23 March 2017 at 14:08, Martin Steers <martin at martinsteers.co.uk <mailto:martin at martinsteers.co.uk> > wrote:
I do have a question as to who should pay?
If you were presented an option to pay say £1,000 but get this survey data that in the right hands could bring in 10 times that as income surely that would be seen as a good investment?
Martin
On 23 March 2017 at 13:11, Terry Beale <t.beale at tonefm.co.uk <mailto:t.beale at tonefm.co.uk> > wrote:
I would echo the sentiments. As a not for profit station we can't afford to pay for this and we are always being asked the question.
CR stations need support we do a valuable job!!
Terry Beale
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 at 10:33, Eden FM Radio <admin at edenfm.co.uk <mailto:admin at edenfm.co.uk> > wrote:
I found that email mildly insulting.
The most popular question we are asked when trying to sell advertising or apply for a grant, is "how many people listen".
We would LOVE to be able to say ". . . community radio formal research shows . . . " it would make our life in the frozen north-west of England easier.
No national advertiser is going to put money in to community radio without some acceptable industry standard research.
Not every station would want to take national advertising or, in some cases, any advertising at all and we all respect that I hope. Eden FM, however, would be happy to receive some income from this source.
It was disappointing that Ofcom felt unable to support the application to fund some industry standard research and I hope that somehow there can be a resolution.
Cheers.
-Nigel-
Eden FM Radio Ltd
Office : 01786 899 101
Studio: 01768 899 107
Web: www.edenfm.co.uk <http://www.edenfm.co.uk>
Twitter: @EdenFmRadio
Facebook : @edenfmonline
Mostyn Hall, Friargate, Penrith CA11 7XP
----- Original Message -----
From: Canalside's The Thread <mailto:office at thethread.org.uk>
To: 'The Community Media Association Discussion List' <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:21 PM
Subject: [cma-l] FW: the pudding
From: Canalside Community Radio Ltd [mailto:office at canalsideradio.net <mailto:office at canalsideradio.net> ]
Sent: 22 March 2017 17:19
To: 'Canalside's The Thread' <office at thethread.org.uk <mailto:office at thethread.org.uk> >
Subject: FW: the pudding
Dear All
This came through today from Radio Response ……… we’re giving it a go here at Canalside I have to say though we are our own worst enemy. People are bending over backwards to help us, why are we not ALL running these to give ourselves a fighting chance ? the sooner we start operating as a ‘collective’ fraternity the better it will be for everyone. Surely even the ‘I’m alright Jacks’ could do the decent thing and try help the ones who are having a bit of a tough time ??? maybe I’m going soft in my old age ?
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
AUDIENCE RESEARCH
As most of you will know by now, unfortunately, OFCOM did not grant the funds for our Somer Valley FM led bid to provide audience research to a consortium of 20 stations. The funding pot this time round totalled £200,000 and whilst our bid was well received the committee did not feel it could justify the allocation of 20% of the fund to one bid. We are looking for alternative funding opportunities and will keep you posted on developments.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Which Pot of funding is this ? and why do we need audience research again ? is this yet another consultation dressed up with a different wording ?
Surely, once you launch something like this you are then in the Commercial Zone. The proof of the Pudding is in the eating isn’t it ? WE (as a collective body) either get ready for a fall and Radio Response change their name to Radio No Response or we hit the jackpot and the results come flooding in. The three trial Advertisers then write ‘’’testimonials’’’ for the Sales people to pitch at the next target. I personally think a fair to middling response would be good enough for us. Correct me if I am wrong but fair to middling from 250 Stations is rather good National Advertising isn’t it ?
However, as I have pointed out many times before, we have to be careful that we don’t go drifting off into NoddyLand …… there is no guarantee that if we were on Rajar that the figures would make good reading ----- if this was the case then surely on a National Scheme we’d be going backwards wouldn’t we? So best stick with Herbert Muggins the Candlestick Maker in the Village. Then again (REMAINING POSITIVE) the figures could prove very promising and exciting …………. I am already stripped down to my undies in anticipation, and ready to take the big splash plunge into the Canal Yippeeeee
Onwards and Upwards / Monkeeeee Magic
I’m sure the team will keep us posted
Nicholas H Dumpty / Sales Co-Ordinator & Chief Cashier ka-ching ***
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