[cma-l] PPL and PRSfM - Community Radio "Licences"

Fri Sep 16 14:42:26 BST 2016

James and all

I am sending war and peace over in a mo      delete it by all means.

Lots of sense here by James ……….. most of it correct except when we get to the punchline, the punchline is missing. Whether we have a good deal a mediocre deal or a bum deal, the fact is that none of this has been given to us through the goodness of their hearts. It has come about (whether you like it disagree or not) because a few individuals at our end have stuck their heads above the parapet and argued the toss. I for one have most certainly done that and I have done it as a lone soldier at times with phone calls and e-mails not just to the message board.

I haven’t filled a report form in for 5 years because our report is nowt to report. We have a S/O on the original agreed amounts (which everyone seems to have forgotten about)    and that’s it. Hence why I yet again suggest a fixed fee. If this causes a problem for some, then do a fixed fee 1 and 2     lower/higher

Don’t get sucked into some fantasy land that this a normal ongoing process …………… no it isn’t … it has come about because one or two have stood firm and said     ‘’hang on a mo’’       the PPL/PRS are as fed up with the system as we are, and don’t be kidded …. This will be easier for them as well as for us. Being really spticle   I s uppose you could argue that the changes are only to suit them and we are just an afterthought.

A bit like the Volunteer time and the £15,000 grand on the restrictions …. This hasn’t been handed to us on a plate …. We have had to fight and argue for it ---- very sad really when you consider we should be doing other things that are more positive. These processes have also taken YEARS

We have had a wonderful 12 Years ………sadly marred though as  a quarter of the period has been spent in negative mode firefighting.

And here we go again ….. we are trying to reach a fair and reasonable agreement and people are talking about Tribunals !     have I missed something here ?

If Government / Authorities etc etc etc can charge what they like, then I suggest they simply get on with it. Trouble is, it doesn’t quite work like that. Hence why we need to realise that we are now 260 strong and if one gets kicked we should all limp.

I like to think that in the main I am a decent type of chap .. but I have ended up disliked merely because all I do is say it as it is AND (this is the main bit)    SAY WHAT MOST OTHERS ARE THINKING         ie:- the one who fires the bullets gets the grief.

Of course it bothers me a bit, but I ain’t one for selling my soul to the devil.

Nick

From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of James Cridland
Sent: 16 September 2016 14:08
To: The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL and PRSfM - Community Radio "Licences"

>>I stand to be corrected, but I don't think any society has gone before the tribunal on any proposal to amend or extend their scheme to cover non-profit radio, they have just come up with fresh agreements for community radio, offering broadly the same terms as for large scale commercial radio.<<

They don't need to. They can charge what they like, and if the Community Media Association doesn't agree with the prices and thinks it's worth it, the CMA can then take them to the Copyright Tribunal if they can't reach agreement any other way. That's how the Tribunal works, as a last resort. You don't have to ask them for permission.

I'm not in community radio, so my two-pence-worth on this is:

1. They charge most large commercial radio groups around 12% of NBR in total. They're charging just 4% for most community radio stations (assuming you're earning less than 600,000 quid). If you earn nothing on commercial revenue, you're paying 732. And there are no extra charges for the internet, it would appear, reading the terms.

2. They require full logs for commercial radio groups, and you have to deal with PRS and PPL separately. For community radio, from January, you don't have any logging requirements, and you're only going to be dealing with one company: less hassle, less paperwork.

I think, for the entire PRS/PPL repertoire, that's a bloody good deal, to be honest.

//j

On 16 September 2016 at 12:45, Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk> > wrote:

Actually Richard, I don't think that's exactly right.

The legislation certainly gives societies the right to apply to the Copyright Tribunal for legal recognition of a licensing scheme for a group of rights holders, or to vary a scheme, but it is up to the societies to set the scale of fees in their schemes. The Copyright Tribunal becomes involved in ruling on the details of fees only if specifically asked to.

The Copyright Tribunal's main role is to act as an arbiter if and when prospective rights user finds themselves unable to agree grant of a licence or licence terms with a relevant collecting society. Going before the tribunal is an expensive and protracted process much the same as bringing any other civil case to court (though there is now a fast track available to some cases). This of course can effectively deny justice to users who do not have the financial and legal resources that PPL or PRS can bring to bear in court, and who cannot risk the potentially huge legal bills.

The significance of this is that PPL and PRS could, if they were minded to, agree to offer different fee scales for different sectors, for example for not-for-profit local radio, They are not obliged to have the fees set by Copyright Tribunal. Indeed, I'm not aware of any tribunal ruling on the fees to be applied to community/non-profit radio stations, only for the BBC and for commercial stations (AIRC v PPL back in 1993). That settlement, incidentally, did not give them a right to charge a minimum fee. 

I stand to be corrected, but I don't think any society has gone before the tribunal on any proposal to amend or extend their scheme to cover non-profit radio, they have just come up with fresh agreements for community radio, offering broadly the same terms as for large scale commercial radio.

They do of course have a duty to ensure that their fees are equitable and reasonable, but on the face of it it would seem perfectly fair and reasonable to have a lower scale of charges for radio stations whose aim is not to make private profit from use of the copyright material, and I don't believe it would be mandatory to refer such a scale of fees to the Copyright tribunal for approval if the licencees accepted it.

Alex

On 16 September 2016 at 11:21 Richard Berry <richard.berry at sunderland.ac.uk <mailto:richard.berry at sunderland.ac.uk> > wrote:

The legislation sets the framework, and the Copyright Tribunal set the fees (See here:  <http://www.prsformusic.com/aboutus/faqs/prsformusicfaqs/pages/default.aspx#9> http://www.prsformusic.com/aboutus/faqs/prsformusicfaqs/pages/default.aspx#9  here:  <https://www.gov.uk/guidance/licensing-bodies-and-collective-management-organisations> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/licensing-bodies-and-collective-management-organisations and here:  <https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/copyright-tribunal> https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/copyright-tribunal)

The general thrust is copyright owners have the right under law to be paid when their work is used. When you buy a CD you are granted permission (a licence) to play that music in certain situations. That does not include a public performance, where an additional licence must be granted. PRS and PPL are member organisations (As is EOS in Wales) who collect royalties for performances by their members. This makes it easier for us and for them. The fees are set by the bodies and overseen by Government. Obviously, the members want to biggest payment possible to offset losses through piracy etc.  You potentially don’t have to pay THEM the fees, but you would then permission for each element of the copyrights for everything that you did play. For example, the current number one “Closer” has 7 listed writers with which you would need to reach agreement. You’d also need consent from the publishers, the record label (possibly the owner and the subsidiaries) as well as the artists. Plus clearances for any samples used. Whilst we’d all wish the fees were lower, a blanket licence is by the far the easiest solution. If you object, you could of course run an all speech station, one where artists waive their rights (Amazing Radio did this for a bit) or music from artists who are not members. 

The power is with artists (see this about the split in Wales  <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-30961059> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-30961059) It’s a shame you missed the PRS/PPL session last weeken Ian, we were looking forward to your questions

Best wishes

Richard

From:  <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto: <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Two Lochs Radio
Sent: 16 September 2016 10:25
To:  <mailto:office at thethread.org.uk> office at thethread.org.uk; Ian Hickling; The Community Media Association Discussion List
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL and PRSfM - Community Radio "Licences"

The answer to the simple question is the same as it has been every time you've asked Ian. It's the: Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 Sections 116-123.

Alex.

On 16 September 2016 at 06:54 Ian Hickling <transplanfm at hotmail.com <mailto:transplanfm at hotmail.com> > wrote:

The very basic challenge I've posed - amongst others - to PRSfM and PPL is:

Show me please where in the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 - or any other legislation - it says that I have to pay you exclusively the fees you are demanding.

Surely a very simple question - to which an answer is strangely not forthcoming?

Ian Hickling

Partner

 <http://www.transplanuk.com/> 

Office:  <tel:016%203557%208435> 016 3557 8435  (07h to 22h GTS)

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From:  <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk < <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> on behalf of Alex Gray, Two Lochs Radio < <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk> tlr at gairloch.co.uk>
Sent: 15 September 2016 17:28
To:  <mailto:office at thethread.org.uk> office at thethread.org.uk; 'The Community Media Association Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [cma-l] FW: PPL and PRS for Music Community Radio Licences - Customer Consultation

Dear Mr Numpty

The rough answers to your questions are:

1)      Number of songs played per-hour      average

The only proposed change in reporting is that there will no longer be a need to submit an estimate of future revenue at the start of a year, only the actual revenue at the end of the year.

2)      Standard budget reasonable cost payment                           bearing – in – mind that

Whichever is the greater of:

Minimum combined fee of £1798/year, or

Combined royalties of 5% on 80% of any broadcast advertising or sponsorship income

3)      We are not for profit and our NET revenue is zero / zilch / diddly squat

That status is of no interest to PPL or PRS – they levy the royalties on 80% of your broadcast (and/or simulcast) advertising and sponsorship income, regardless of whether or not it leads to profit or you spend it all on coffee and doughnuts for the presenters. If you have no such income, then you would pay only the minimum fees. 

4)      No reporting, as there is nothing to report apart from song usage

See 1) above

Hope that fits within the attention span of a goldfish - good luck with the plates!

Alex

----------------------------

Anything outside of this, my attention span has suddenly developed into that of a Goldfish.

I fill the form in later as I need to get back to the 50 Plates ….. well    42 actually, as 8 have just dropped off

Nick Dumpty

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