[cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio
Ian Hickling
transplanfm at hotmail.com
Sun Dec 11 14:11:45 GMT 2016
Bob - what you have written from 30 years' experience is very valuable - thank you.
But - forgive me - it all reads as probability - and what we must have here is cast-iron legal facts.
So many times we are told that the Royalty Societies are all-powerful with formidable litigation support.
Sorry - that doesn't frighten me one bit.
These situations are all governed by UK Law and administered by one of the best Judiciaries on the planet.
I will not be bullied by any overbearing organisation - of any variety - and neither should the rest of us.
We've recently been shown the power that an MP can exert by summoning a Government Agency to answer questions at The House.
Let's use it!
Ian Hickling
Partner
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Office: 016 3557 8435 (07h to 22h GTS)
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From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> on behalf of Bob Tyler <bobtyler at btinternet.com>
Sent: 10 December 2016 22:02
To: cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio
The deal offered by the joint licencing bodies is a very good deal and commercial radio would bite their arm off to get a similar arrangement.
I have only two concerns.
The ‘Top Line’ details I saw posted recently are what they say they are, top line/main points. It is not the actual contract. I do not know if a proposed contract has been disclosed for further approval?
I am not a current licence holder, so I would assume that as with most of PPL/PRS contracts they are confidential. Therefore any broadcaster wishing to sign should seek to have the agreement checked and explained by a solicitor before signing.
Thereby lies another tale. The agreement is probably offered to all and therefore PPL/PRS cannot alter the agreement to favour a particular licensee. So if two or three sign, it’s done deal, everyone gets the same.
In other words, the devil is in the detail and I am surprised that they are suggesting this agreement commences next month (less than 3 weeks away).
I would not sign anything until it was generally felt that all concerned were happy with the contract.
Whatever you might think. These two bodies are law abiding, they are very savvy legally but also accommodating. As far as I understand, they set this commencement date and it is not unreasonable to request a period of time to review the legalities of what you are signing. If you were to delay the contract commencing next month, it would simply be backdated.
My second concern is that having dealt with these collecting bodies for more than 30 years I am familiar with the way they conduct their business. I believe they will ensure they collect their fees due to them under the signed agreement. The sums of money are smaller than any of their other licences but this is certainly a very favourable proposal. However, when you sign the agreement you will be expected to keep up to date with the payments.
Personally I feel this unique deal should have been a CMA Exclusive. In other words, only available to CMA members. I don’t think it is too late to achieve this.
It is all a bit irrelevant in the context of the current Ofcom Consultation.
On 2 Dec 2016, at 15:44, Ian Hickling <transplanfm at hotmail.com<mailto:transplanfm at hotmail.com>> wrote:
So Martin - the message appears to be that you have to be very rich to get justice from such organisations.
Contrast this with what we've been able to achieve with Ofcom - an Agency of H M Government - by careful research and reasoned argument - without having to resort to paying any fees to anyone.
Is there a lesson to be learned there I wonder?
Ian Hickling
Partner
[https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/2SkDsnIzSZgRbNnNKBSiwxiFhFQWRGV55mTjVL23fulnJpstZmYxeKrrYefY4qxiSgkMrAETld64XINLXCsujE_zI5gAsQyWeCWvHixcrNYtar3Sij4YlVBgN2NSQ-n2DsgZvrnpWZlfwCQ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.transplanuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/transplan_UK_weblogo_190x60.png]<http://www.transplanuk.com/>
Office: 016 3557 8435 (07h to 22h GTS)
Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)
6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS
________________________________
From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> <cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk>> on behalf of Martin Steers <martin at martinsteers.co.uk<mailto:martin at martinsteers.co.uk>>
Sent: 02 December 2016 14:55:42
To: Canalside's The Thread; The Community Media Association Discussion List
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio
Dear all,
The CMA has continued to represent the sector and lobby hard for better terms etc from PPL & PRS, we have won some concessions with the reduced fees for CR stations who want to simulcast DAB & CR FM/AM. (I think from memory a saving of £500 a year).. and there are also other areas and work that still needs to be done as far as I am concerned (RSL fees, SSDAB for CR/Not for Profits etc).
However other than representation and lobbying as the CMA currently are doing, I am not sure what else the organisation can do that is responsible and legal.
The CMA couldnt condone or recommend a boycott of fees or anything else that could get stations or the CMA into legal hot water, nor can they engage legal advice without a "warchest".
If the sector wants to come together and put up some money to consider taking PPL/PRS to copyright tribunal then I am sure the CMA could help coordinate the effort and bring it all together, but I suspect we would need at least £10k just to engage a firm to do some ground work.. and the sector could be looking at tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds to fully take the case. Not to mention I think the looser pays all the costs dont they? so that would need to be budgeted for.
As ever I would recommend stations consider the situation, evaluate your numbers / finances, what counts on NBR etc I suspect 95% of stations would only pay the minimal fees and if you need someone else to check your numbers I am sure the office or myself would be more than happy.
Martin
On 2 December 2016 at 14:36, Canalside's The Thread <office at thethread.org.uk<mailto:office at thethread.org.uk>> wrote:
Good Heavens
I can have field day on this discussion ………I’m just a bit busy at the moment but I’ll sink my teeth into it when I get five mins.
Nick Dumpty
From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk>] On Behalf Of tlr at gairloch.co.uk<mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk>
Sent: 02 December 2016 12:20
To: The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>>
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio
That's a nice thought, but a very simplistic approach Pippa.
Your advice is probably good for a station that is allowed to take advertising and has a population of, say, 10,000 or more to go at. But it's not so easy for a station serving a huge area with a population of under 3,000. I have no problem with payment of reasonable royalties, but the payment should be better related to the value of the rights being granted.
Under the present system, a small station that can't feasibly generate more than, say, £10,000 in broadcast revenue pays more than 15% of its revenue in PPL/PRS royalties (thanks to the effect of minimum fees), whereas a station in a more populated area that is able to raise, say, £50,000 a year, and has a much larger pool of potential volunteers available, pays around 3%.
There are other unjustified anomalies - such as if you add an FM relay that doubles your potential audience, there is no direct additional charge, but if you add a DAB transmitter serving fewer people than your existing FM transmitter you do pay extra.
Alex
On 02 December 2016 at 11:47 Pippa at Curly Radio <pippa at curlyradio.com<mailto:pippa at curlyradio.com>> wrote:
Alternatively we can all stop wasting valuable time and energy in fighting the system. Instead, focus on developing brilliant locally focused programmes which engage and build your audience. That way you will have advertisers and sponsors lined up who will cover the cost of your licences.
It’s also much more fun <image001.png>
Happy Friday everyone.
Pippa
From: Canalside's The Thread
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 11:21 AM
To: 'The Community Media Association Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio
Dear All
I suggested to PRS/PPL back in 2011 that would it not make sense for all concerned to have :-
1) One collection point
2) One fee covering everything
3) One fee (be it either a minimum fee or an average fee)
Like quite a lot of my suggestions over the years, they were dismissed and laughed at. Very odd though that 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 years later down the line we always end regurgitating them and tagging them with ‘’ah, that’s not a bad idea’’ or actually implementing them full stop. Remember that most do actually agree but fall under the category of the ‘silent majority’
If you would like me to give you a list of those observations, pointers etc I can do ---- I’m up to 15 at the moment on my list, which is exactly the same number as my ‘’well I told you so’s’’
Best if we get to the nitty gritty though
We have to face up to the fact that in all changes of things and tweaks to things some folk will be slightly better off and some will be slightly worse off (that’s life) ……………. But alas ----- unless we start working as a team and a fraternity we will forever be going around in circles and being picked off one by one and walked on by the authorities.
I hope at the AGM this year we actually walk out of the place at 5:30pm with a clear vision as to what works, what doesn’t work, what we have concerns about, and most importantly what are we going to do about it, as whinging for the next 14 Years (me included) is not acceptable. I would also hope that we stop being nicey nicey all the time and face up to the fact that sometimes sadly we have to be controversial and we have to say the things that are maybe not pleasant.
I’m afraid with this PRS/PPL malarkey it does drop on my ‘’well I told you so list’’ unless I have missed something, we haven’t really gained anything ??? or that’s how it seems.
I hear what Bill is saying and there are some changes to the DAB malarkey however, the truth is, the majority of us couldn’t even afford a Yogurt Carton and a piece of string, let alone DAB …… so it’s a none starter.
NBR or whatever you call it in relation to Community Radio HAS TO GO BON VOYAGE / DUMP IT ! it rubs against everything we stand for, I have been saying this since day dot. We (Canalside) do not fill this form in as I refuse to do so. I suggest everyone else (all 270) do exactly the same. It isn’t NET it is GROSS …………. And Gross has no bearing on what we do.
We (Community Radio) are charitable, With some actually fully fledged charities, all not-for-profit and the rules that we operate under (or is that Straight-Jacket?) means we do exactly what it says on the Can/Tin.
With this in mind (I repeat) come the end of the financial year be that in our case November but others maybe April the end result is = not a Pot to Pee in. What do PRS/PPL/DCMS etc not understand about that ?? it seems quite simple to grasp.
Our report is NOTHING TO REPORT apart from the fact on average we play 9 songs per-hour. If that changes we will inform PRS/PPL we shouldn’t have to keep informing them every 12 Months.
Come November our Pockets are empty.
I didn’t really fill the consultation in for a number of reasons :-
1) They already know my/our thoughts on this as I have told them directly on at least 20 occasions since 2008
2) It isn’t a consultation really coz the folk at the other end aren’t reading it, nor are they listening
3) The Agenda (if we are being honest with each other) couldn’t really give a flying cactus about us, it was more for making things easier for PRS/PPL not actually a crime, but hey, can we not work together on this please ?
4) And finally --- when Lucy and Laura (who are two lovely people may I add) were in Birmingham, the whole exercise was pointless. Just like all the other nonsenses ie:- BBC man etc etc we sit for an hour being told what the rules are (we already know the rules)(in fact I know them better than the authorities) they tell more small print, yet again what we already know and then hey presto we get to Bingo time and we’ve run out of time because someone has a Train to catch. This is NOT a consultation, it is a stitch up. As long as we tip toe and pussyfoot along with it we will for ever be on the receiving end.
My suggestion is a couple of Grand (£1600 - £2000) for the LOT ……….. this includes the FM and Internet for both and in our case here at Canalside – if we wish to run a small 100/200 stream training facility for the youngsters that gets chucked in for free. We make no money from this whatsoever but they charge us. We feel so strongly about it that we will possibly be stopping the payments now as this consultation seems to have achieved not much at all.
Finally, there is NO REPORTING as there is nothing to report. When we have paid all of our bills we end up with not a sausage and then we start afresh the following year.
This is all plain sailing and common sense to me ….. trouble is when Community Radio started Common sense went out the window.
Absolutely finally I would like to put my suggestion forward and ask if the CMA and Members will back it. If not, then that’s fine, but a word of warning ---- you/we are now at a crossroads, get some fire in your bellies (take note) or else Community Radio in the next number of years in the main will start to fade away, and that would be a travesty after all the hard graft we have each put in.
Obviously, those just on T’internet would pay about £600 quid-dish ??
Just done the Maths, and as you know I’m not very good at Maths (nor English LOL) and to my calculation 270 x £2000 = £540,000 unless I have the decimal point in the wrong place (sorry if I have got this wrong) that’s not a bad little guaranteed tickle though for Chrimbo
Thank you
H Dumpty / Doormat FM
From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Ian Hickling
Sent: 01 December 2016 17:17
To: The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>>
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio
That's Stanford University and US law - no relevance over here fortunately.
Ian Hickling
Partner
[https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/2SkDsnIzSZgRbNnNKBSiwxiFhFQWRGV55mTjVL23fulnJpstZmYxeKrrYefY4qxiSgkMrAETld64XINLXCsujE_zI5gAsQyWeCWvHixcrNYtar3Sij4YlVBgN2NSQ-n2DsgZvrnpWZlfwCQ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.transplanuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/transplan_UK_weblogo_190x60.png]<http://www.transplanuk.com/>
Office: 016 3557 8435 (07h to 22h GTS)
Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)
6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS
________________________________
From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> <cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk>> on behalf of Tony Bailey <ravensound at pilgrimsound.co.uk<mailto:ravensound at pilgrimsound.co.uk>>
Sent: 01 December 2016 16:39:26
To: cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk<mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio
The term "licence" or "license" is used by an authority but it has also been used to give rights under an agreement:
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/introduction/permission-tools-licenses-and-releases/
Tony Bailey
On 01/12/16 14:03, Ian Hickling wrote:
That's very informative - thank you.
But they've left out (or - Heaven forbid - ignored) two important aspects of the responses to their Joint Consultation:
1 - If this is a Licence - as opposed to a Service Charge - why isn't it issued by the only Licensing Authority in the system - which is Ofcom? PRSfM and PPL are commercial businesses - not Licensing Authorities
2 - Despite many requests - there is still no categorical statement as to why PRSfM and PPL are entitled in Law to claim these payments - and precisely where this is written in UK Legislation.
Sorry - I know I've asked this many times before - but it's something we do need to have laid before us - and by the very people who are making these far-reaching demands.
My feeling is that broadcasters large and small who part with their hard-earned cash before being happy with the answers are rather unwise.
This isn't going to go away.
It makes no odds to us - we don't pay these charges - it's you out there, our friends and loyal Clients, that I'm concerned about.
Ian Hickling
Partner
Office: 016 3557 8435 (07h to 22h GTS)<http://www.transplanuk.com/>
Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)<http://www.transplanuk.com/>
6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS<http://www.transplanuk.com/>
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