[cma-l] Eddie on DAB v FM

Shankar Meembat shankar.meembat at exaget.com
Sun Sep 6 09:25:43 BST 2015 

The discussion on FM/DAB/IP is interesting and I agree that we should have the ability to switch between these seamlessly should happen. And, from a technology point of view, it is possible.

The question, as with most of technology adoption is - where is the money ? However, cheap it is, there is a cost involved that someone needs to pay for. (I have been involved in decisions where adding a couple of cents to the BOM - Bill of Material - of a product  that costs hundreds of pounds has been a deal breaker.)

Logic says that whoever gets the value should pay for it. From the discussion, this is most largest beneficiary is  the listener. So, in order for this to be successful, the listener should pay. Unfortunately, the typical Radio listener is used to getting it for “free" - whether as a part of the car, hi-fi system or mobile phone - that it is going to be tough for them to shell out any money. 

The manufacturers have very little initiative - automobile manufactures are not going to sell more cars because it has a radio unit that switches transmission methods seamlessly (or there is no proof of that). 

That then leaves the broadcasters themselves. Are the broadcasters ready to subsidise the cost for the listeners and/or manufacturers. Radioplayer is a great industry initiative in that direction - it is funded by the industry. But as the £99 fee (is that monthly or annual ?) indicates, there is a “participation” cost that needs to be covered.

So, we all agree this is good and needed. There is also a cost involved with this. So, the question is then how to cover the cost. Let’s face it - these advances are not going to bring much more listeners or listening hours - those numbers are already so high as a percentage of the population that it will not increase significantly enough to cover the cost.

That leaves with one other alternative - radio stations get more revenue per listener. And this is where I possibly get into a rant :-) Because that is possible, we have the tech to do so (targeted advertising) and I have even tried giving it away for free to radio stations with very little success. (our tech is currently live for IP broadcasts, but no reason why it could not go across AM/FM/DAB). But that means a new paradigm for Radio - selling advertising differently, breaking away from RAJAR measurements to live measurement, etc. All tough changes that is not going to be easy and I am yet to find a good partner for that - any takers ?

Shankar





Shankar Meembat, Founder and CEO
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> On 5 Sep 2015, at 23:12, James Cridland <james at cridland.net> wrote:
> 
> I'll ask Michael to pop in and talk more about Radioplayer, and how the recommended stations work. I do occasional work with them, and was part of the original team that worked on the idea, so you'll appreciate I'm quite keen about it!
> 
> What he has said publicly is that if you are focused on a small local area, you are far more likely to appear as #1 in the recommendations for that small local area. It would therefore make sense that, for community radio, you'll be winners; even if you try hitting the recommendations directly from the BBC Radio 2 Radioplayer. (Go to www.bbc.co.uk/radio <http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio>2, click 'listen live', click the menu button and choose 'recommended' - for clarity, the thing that appears as soon as you hit 'listen live' is Radioplayer).
> 
> Recommendations are also based on your listening history, trending stations across the UK, as well as locality.
> 
> One final thing - at TwoLochs you don't use your Radioplayer console on your own website, giving me a direct link to a .m3u that my Chromebook has no comprehension what to do with. So, bizarrely, the only way I can actually listen to you is to go to the BBC Radio 2 website, click 'listen live', then search for Two Lochs from there. Why wouldn't you want people to hear your station, to mark it as a favourite in your own player, and to ensure that others find it through 'trending'? My advice is to use the Radioplayer pop-up as the main player, and relegate that m3u link you use to a geeky page somewhere.
> 
> [And thanks for the graphical link to Media UK - I'd love that to link to https://media.info <https://media.info/> these days]
> 
> //j
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 10:40 PM Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk>> wrote:
> I should pay more attention to confusing branding! Good to see it is actually integrated with UK Radioplayer, though that makes me wonder if all the other stations will also stutter in the station office Chrome browser. I shall check it out on Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> But why do you think the UK Radioplayer offers only one BBC station here, and none in most of the surounding area? Sure BBC reception is very patchy, but surely the radioplayer should show stations intended to serve the area - after all one of its advantages is that where broadband is available it can give good 'reception' where off-air reception is poor.
> 
> 
> 
> What does Radioplayer use to determine what stations it shows for a locality?
> 
> 
> 
> Alex
> 
> 
> 
>> On 05 September 2015 at 22:16 James Cridland <james at cridland.net <mailto:james at cridland.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> "I must try the UK Radioplayer to see if it is smoother under Chrome than the BBC Radioplayer."
>> 
>> It's the same thing. That's kind of the point!
>> 
>> //j
>> 
>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 10:10 PM Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk>> wrote:
>> Sounds good - maybe it needs more promotion! 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I had never tried RadioPlayer's location feature - just tried it and pleasingly it offered only us and BBC Radio Scotland in this area, showing none of the other 5 BBC services available here! For Ullapool nearby it doesn't even offer any BBC stations! For most of the neighbouring localities where we are available (and so is the BBC in some of them) it shows "Sorry, no stations", which is disappointing.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> TuneIn offers each of our neighbouring local stations (Cuillin and Isles), and no BBC.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I don't get any ads with TuneIn, but maybe that's because I paid for the Pro version years ago.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Radioplayer doesn't seem to have schedule/broadcast details for us (nor Chromecast?), but I like the way it pulls from our Facebook page.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Talking of Chrome apps, the BBC Radioplayer doesn't work for me under Chrome, or rather it works but stutters, which is annoying when I want to listen to Radio 4 at the radio station (FM reception of the BBC is very weak here, so I usually listen online). I must try the UK Radioplayer to see if it is smoother under Chrome than the BBC Radioplayer.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> TuneIn says we have 2,300 followers, which is pleasing for a station with a home TSA of just 1,600
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Alex :)
>> 
>>> On 05 September 2015 at 20:47 James Cridland <james at cridland.net <mailto:james at cridland.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I use TuneIn's app too.
>>> 
>>> Radioplayer provides:
>>> 1. A web player that actually works, and that lets people find your station from BBC Radio 2!
>>> 2. A capable app that surfaces your station - first - for people in your transmission area on iOS and Android, Amazon and Windows.
>>> 3. Logos, schedules and broadcast details for your station for a variety of uses including Radioplayer Car, RadioDNS-enabled tuners, and other things
>>> 4. A Chrome app (which I wrote <- disclosure) that puts your station onto everyone's desktop
>>> 5. An app that puts your station onto Ford Sync, Apple CarPlay and Android Auto (and lets you control it from Apple Watch and Android Wear)
>>> 6. Liason on behalf of the entire radio industry to set-top box manufacturers, car manufacturers and other organisations that you don't talk to nor have the clout to
>>> 7. Usage data
>>> ...and is run on behalf of the radio industry with your goals in mind.
>>> 
>>> Even for #1 on that list, it's worth the £99. I appreciate it isn't free; but then, it isn't slotting ads in front of your streams or making you compete with 100,000 other stations, either.
>>> 
>>> //j
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 8:32 PM Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk>> wrote:
>>> Your fee for Radioplayer is £99. “A more proportionate fee”?!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Just so, but Michael originally asked £300, which we negotiated down to £90 (that was at launch, it has increased 10% since).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> TuneIn's app provides more advanced facilities than Radioplayer and the service is entirely free to originating stations. They also provide a schedule and 'On now' without us having to lift a finger - they scrape our own published schedule periodically (I must ask them to update it as it seems to be slightly out of date).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Alex
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 05 September 2015 at 20:03 James Cridland <james at cridland.net <mailto:james at cridland.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Your fee for Radioplayer is £99. "A more proportionate fee"?!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 5 Sep 2015 19:47 Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>> Yes, of course I'm aware of the other variants of FM, my point was that there seems ot be alarge enough market for RDS for set makers, even portables and some phones, such as HTC, to judge it worthwhile supporting RDS. 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> And you need to be continuously scanning the FM and DAB bands to populate this station list name, otherwise when travelling you'll never find local radio.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The radio does that for itself unbidden. I routinely use the radio's station list to see what stations are in range.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Incidentally, I cannot comprehend why anyone wouldn't be on Radioplayer, I must say: its the R&D department for the whole of UK radio.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The main reason for not being on RadioPlayer would be the cost and the fact that ithey won't allow you to be on mobiles if you don't provide a low-rate bitstream. We joined it when the BBC was on it and didn't have its own radioplayer which rather undermined  UK Radioplayer's proposition. But we did first have to negotiate a more proportionate fee!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> As a user, I still prefer to use TuneIn. It has far more facilities.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Alex
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 05 September 2015 at 18:45 James Cridland <james at cridland.net <mailto:james at cridland.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi, Alex,
>>>>> 
>>>>> The UK market is a tiny and inconsequential one to most manufacturers. The Digital Radio tickmark thing is actually deliberately set to mirror similar accreditation systems in Europe and Australia. Further, the radio industry is uninterested in how radio sets operate, and not big or united enough to talk to most manufacturers in a coherent manner.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Really, we have a "North America vs rest-of-world" thing going on in radio receivers. You are correct that AM is different - so is FM, in fact, with different deemphasis values used as well as different frequency spacing. Pedants: Japan's different still, with FM from 76 to 108MHz. And parts of ex Soviet countries use something different again.
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Animated and dynamic RDS names do not break tuning by name" - I bow to your obvious knowledge. I'd only observe that scrolling now-playing info, in place in many parts of the world, means that you end up with station names like "TY PERRY" or even "LE NOW O" which really isn't the sort of user experience any one wants to give, and certainly isn't recognisable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tuning by station name doesn't work on AM - but I'd argue that AM isn't part of radio's future anyway. (Pedants: it does, if you use AMSS, a kind of RDS for AM. Nobody does).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Further, the ideal is tuning by station name irrespective of waveband - so you'd get "BBC 6 Music" in the same list as "TwoLochs". (You want that, right?) The issue here is that de-duping the list isn't simple; "BBC R Scot" on FM in your part of the world could be different to "BBC Radio Scotland" on an available local multiplex, because of local optouts. The BBC have deliberately broken service-following between FM and DAB, which has the side effect of also breaking any way that your radio can de-dupe Radio 4 FM from Radio 4 DAB. And so on.
>>>>> 
>>>>> And you need to be continuously scanning the FM and DAB bands to populate this station list name, otherwise when travelling you'll never find local radio.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The "Radioplayer Car" unit, currently in test, does all you have asked for and more - linking to IP as well (and more importantly linking back), and letting you tune by station name and logo. https://media.info/radio/stations/two-lochs-radio <https://media.info/radio/stations/two-lochs-radio> tells me that you are on Radioplayer, so you'll benefit when that is available for sale later this year.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Incidentally, I cannot comprehend why anyone wouldn't be on Radioplayer, I must say: its the R&D department for the whole of UK radio.
>>>>> 
>>>>> James
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, 5 Sep 2015 18:17 Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>>> The reason RDS names aren't used as a method of tuning is that RDS isn't ubiquitous in the US, and in Europe many stations use animated and dynamic RDS names, which breaks this stuff.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can't see any great force in that as a reason for not using station name tuning by default. The RDS radio market is clearly big enough to support it as an option perfectly economically in the rest of world without needing to work in the US. More to the point, I don't think DAB is exactly ubiquitous in the US either is it? And yet we have a market full of DAB sets!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Same sort of thing applies to push button tuning on AM - the US uses 10kHz channel spacing and we use 9kHz, so radio circuits/chipsets in portables have to support both. Anyway, a radio that can tune by station list can still be operated by frequency if it finds itself in a non-RDS region, so it can only be a gain or neutral, not negative.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Animated and dynamic RDS names do not break tuning by name - as I said, my car can tune by station list, and it works perfectly well in continental countries that use more advanced techniques - the station list shows a static shot of the 8 character name which is usually perfectly recognizable. And again, if not, you can fall back to frequency tuning. Tuning by station name doesn't have to be the only mode available, but it should (IMO) be available and the default option for a radio to get the tick mark.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The IP stuff is a further argument, and perfectly fine, but no bearing on my suggestion that for DAB/FM radios sold for the UK market should have been required to offer tuning by station name across FM & DAB. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Alex
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 05 September 2015 at 15:59 James Cridland <james at cridland.net <mailto:james at cridland.net>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The reason RDS names aren't used as a method of tuning is that RDS isn't ubiquitous in the US, and in Europe many stations use animated and dynamic RDS names, which breaks this stuff.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Neither RDS nor DAB offer handoff to IP, nor direct links to other IP-based resources either, so they're not, by themselves, future-proof.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> RadioDNS provides that mapping, which makes radio receivers significantly more user friendly.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> IP is four times smaller than DAB use here in the UK, and is growing slower as well. (Indeed, growth appears to have stagnated for most.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The future is multi-platform, and better sets. Sadly, existing broadcasters aren't entirely on-board.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> James
>>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
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>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
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>> 
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>> 
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
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> 
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> 
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