[cma-l] quick story to tell fellows

Sat Nov 6 22:02:13 GMT 2010

We have been running from Dec 19th 2009 till today 24/7 with audio over ip with 2 serious outages of about 2 hrs each. As long as you have a silence detector and a backup program at site IT DOES WORK RELIABLYMark PoldenFlame CCR Wirral
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:44:40 +0000
Subject: Re: [cma-l] quick story to tell fellows
From: info at a-bc.co.uk
To: markianpolden at hotmail.com
CC: martin at martinsteers.co.uk; jw at 558.net; office at ccr-fm.co.uk; cma-l at commedia.org.uk

I agree with Martin you need someone who knows about radio propagation to look at your coverage.   However - sorry to rain on your parade Martin, especially as I used to live in Pensby, Wirral!)....

Primarily - think...... is Internet is a reliable enough solution for your situation?  Maybe as a backup, but really as a primary feed??Think about the whim of internet congestion or not - depending on your ISP, expect problems that might be say every Friday night, (with a bad ISP) or might only be only rarely every Twin Towers (with an expensive ISP) - and that will only be for an mp3 or similarly compressed stream.  

If you want CD quality (1.5Mbps) you stand very little chance of a reliable enough connection over any normal internet connection unless you contractually ask for that much (and remember when they offer 8MB that's download - they typically only give say 0.45 MB uplink - so no chance of uncompressed audio - you'd have to use mp3 or similar).  Admittedly there are a number of stations which use this solution - but I really question whether the availability is adequate.  

Personally, if possible for an acceptable price, for a primary station output I'd want a solution which is rock solid and does not depend on internet - unless it has guaranteed quality of service (QOS) with contractual commitments (Very expensive!). Pushing the boat out I'd also want full bandwidth CD quality, not mp3.  This isn't because I'm one of those perfectionist audiophiles, but because if you have audio processing (eg DSPX, Audessence, Omnia, Optimod etc) at your transmitter site, it will amplify the inadequacies of anything you inject like mp3.

Health warning -  I'm biassed because my business sells an an IP solution which avoids the internet, and compression (and associated recurring costs!) ....but even if I didn't, from personal experience (volunteer on a local community station), if you have radio line-of-sight between studio and transmitter I'd highly recommend something similar to what ABC provide!

Sorry for blatant self-promotion, but I really honestly would have said (and actually did say) exactly the same before my consultancy started to offer such a solution.    The local station I help has precious little cash - it strives to maximise bang per buck - they've had it in place for over a year now with no problems - and that's a full-bandwidth PCM (=CD WAV quality) link.  If you use audio processing, think very carefully about using an IP link which uses mp3 or similar audio compression - believe me!  If you can afford an analogue link or BT leased line -lucky you!.....but could you be spending all that money better elsewhere..?!

(And if you don't understand what I'm saying above, from experience, I'll willingly talk you through the logic of what I'm trying to say offline for free! info at a-bc.co.uk)

Plug over. (sorry but I'm a teccie advocate who'd like to spread the knowledge, not a salesman - honest!)
Glyn

On 6 November 2010 19:40, mark polden <markianpolden at hotmail.com> wrote:

If that is the problem, I would be willing to have a look at the terain for you. I am based on the wirral, not far away and we have ten years experience on fm even tho we are now on MW. We use a piece of audio over ip software for our STL which cost about £200 and a £25 per month virgin contract each end.
MarkFlame CCR
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 19:24:10 +0000

Subject: Re: [cma-l] quick story to tell fellows
From: glyn at glossfm.org
To: martin at martinsteers.co.uk

CC: markianpolden at hotmail.com; jw at 558.net; office at ccr-fm.co.uk; cma-l at commedia.org.uk

I agree with Ian.  It's probably just a matter of having a look at the transmitter site location.  Apologies if I'm being patronising - I don't know how much you know.

25watts is enough to cover considerably further than 5km if you get the location right, and if there is not a strong local interferer - and Saddleworth (Key 103 TX location the last I knew) is  a LONG way from Macc.  I help at an RSL station in S Glos and we get out considerably further than 5km on the same power!

Power has a surprisingly small effect on coverage area - you could double your power and scarcely detect the difference.  Geography (ie: hills) is far more important factor.  I strongly suggest you consider alternative transmitter locations if you have not already. This is relatively easy with the right computer coverage predictions tools used wisely.    If you have your transmitter co-located to your studio, it's unlikely to be in an optimal location - meaning you'll need an STL (studio to transmitter link).  Sounds scary and expensive, but it needn't be (but could be with the wrong choice!).

As Ian says there are numerous suppliers with solutions out there.  Plug time - have a look at www.a-bc.co.uk.  Other broadcast consultants exist!

And once again - apologies if this seems patronising - it's the first time I've replied to a CMA post, and I don't know many people's background!
Regards, Glyn

On 6 November 2010 12:53, Martin Steers <martin at martinsteers.co.uk> wrote:

I agree that the government could do alot more.. however I do feel they are more committed than the previous administration, they reaffirmed their digital vision early on, BUT made reference to it being a switch over to keep the FM for ILR's and Community stations, they have been working with industry to get DAB in all new cars within a few years and to make all DAB radios HAVE to have FM (IF that
 happens)...
DAB is part of the future of digital radio, not the only part.. DAB accounts for more digital listening than all other digital platforms, and more people listen via the telly than the internet... Internet radio isnt the sole future of radio, i know loads of "everyday" people with FM and DAB sets.. but the only internet radio i have ever known is owned by a real hardcore radio bod..

Stations need to take all opportunities to use every platform, even considering using the Radio Player and other platforms (satellite, freeview TV, sky etc)

But what we do need to do (and add to the list) is to lobby for a review of the power levels limits etc so that we can cater for communities of interest NOT just communities of location..

Martin

Martin Steers

martin at martinsteers.co.uk

From: mark polden <markianpolden at hotmail.com>
To: jw at 558.net; office at ccr-fm.co.uk; cma-l at commedia.org.uk

Sent: Sat, 6 November, 2010 10:07:21
Subject: Re: [cma-l] quick story to tell fellows

This again comes down to the idea of community radio or community of special interest radio. Joseph and myself clearly represent the latter and we are hoping next year when we build our new antenna to do a reappraisal of this (we are on MW btw). 

However as purely community stations this is a difficult situation. We are currently in a no mans land of digital switchover will it ever happen or not (according to the CEG report) and the current status quo seems unlikely to change in the forseeable future. The current government has far too many other problems on its plate and it being a political hot potato with very little real reason/benefit for a kicking. I personally think that in that situation people will see over time that DAB is dead in the water and will be overtaken by internet radio listenership increasingly in cars.

Where does that leave the community sector, well we carry on as best we can
 although some smaller community stations will fall by the wayside but I would encourage those stations with coverage problems to push their internet broadcasting instead.
Mark PoldenFlame CCR

From: jw at 558.net
To: office at ccr-fm.co.uk; cma-l at commedia.org.uk

Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 20:22:48 +0000
Subject: Re: [cma-l] quick story to tell fellows

I think the concept of Community according to OFCOM 
need to be re-visit. I believe the licence system need to take into 
consideration of the real need to the community. How local is local before it 
starts to compete with the commercial sector? And is such 
competition always a bad things? How about the need of the dispersed 
community? The current licence system does not service communities which are 
large in number nationally but not concentrated enough in a single geographical 
area to apply for a community licence.

Joseph Wu
Spectrum Chinese Programme

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  Office - 
  ccr-fm 
  To: 'CMA-L' 
  Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 6:54 
  PM
  Subject: [cma-l] quick story to tell 
  fellows

  Dear 
  All

  Any thoughts on the following 
  chaps ?

  Last night we ran our youth to 
  youth project again. Young people from the community get involved in learning 
  radio skills etc etc etc ……………….. we had a gang of cubs last night. There are 
  16 of them all told.

  They have been coming along on a 
  Wednesday for the last 6 weeks and they enjoy it. Out of the 16 ………… only 4 of 
  them are listening to Canalside with some of the others (possibly through 
  habit and influence from parents) listening to the local commercial station 
  ………………………… however …… as mentioned last week / pointed out / moaned about yet 
  again / made to look like a professional complainer which I am not 
  ------------ 9 out of the group don’t listen because THEY CAN’T 
  !         some of them live in 
  Macclesfield, which, as the crow flies is at most 2 miles outside the pathetic 
  5km limit <> 25 watts etc etc ‘’not enough to blow your hat 
  off’’   I wouldn’t mind, but Bollington is surrounded by 2 miles of 
  fields N/S/E/W     surely this area cannot be included in 
  the figures of the 5km ??

  What is the point providing a 
  fantastic service that is open and accesible to all and yet the basic 
  fundamental idea of radio is that you listen to it ……. If you can’t access it 
  because the facility or rules are bobbins then the whole shaaa-bang becomes 
  pointless …………… flogging dead horses spring to mind. We need help, not 
  bleedin’ restrictions.

  It irritates, it frustrates and it 
  angers all the volunteers and crew at Canalside and we appear to be going 
  around in circles ……….. certainly not making any 
  progress.

  These guys get involved ……. But 
  don’t stay involved     ie:- listening, because they can’t 
  pick it up without hissing and crackling and bloody Key 103 coming over the 
  top of us.

  Key 103 by the way when I asked 
  ALL the sixteen cubs       ‘’Does anyone know 
  who they 
  are?’’               
  they hadn’t a clue !

  So ------------ the question is 
  ……………….. why the hell can we not be allowed to defend ourselves in our own 
  community and why in liaison with Ofcom can we not carefully tweak things so 
  that EVERYONE is permitted to serve their own audience or potential 
  audience.

  Beggars belief it really 
  does

  Sorry to moan again ….. but to us 
  ….. this is not parliamentary ivory tower debate, this is on the ground level 
  real life …… wake up and smell the coffee..

  Regards

  Nick

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