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</head><body><p>That's a nice thought, but a very simplistic approach Pippa.</p><p>Your advice is probably good for a station that is allowed to take advertising and has a population of, say, 10,000 or more to go at. But it's not so easy for a station serving a huge area with a population of under 3,000. I have no problem with payment of reasonable royalties, but the payment should be better related to the value of the rights being granted.</p><p>Under the present system, a small station that can't feasibly generate more than, say, £10,000 in broadcast revenue pays more than 15% of its revenue in PPL/PRS royalties (thanks to the effect of minimum fees), whereas a station in a more populated area that is able to raise, say, £50,000 a year, and has a much larger pool of potential volunteers available, pays around 3%.</p><p>There are other unjustified anomalies - such as if you add an FM relay that doubles your potential audience, there is no direct additional charge, but if you add a DAB transmitter serving fewer people than your existing FM transmitter you do pay extra.</p><p>Alex</p><blockquote type="cite">On 02 December 2016 at 11:47 Pippa at Curly Radio <pippa@curlyradio.com> wrote:<br><br><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: #000000;"><div>Alternatively we can all stop wasting valuable time and energy in fighting the system.  Instead, focus on developing brilliant locally focused programmes which engage and build your audience.  That way you will have advertisers and sponsors lined up who will cover the cost of your licences.</div><div> </div><div>It’s also much more fun <img id="2C4526D160074F49B7D50F7AA1AB0F8E@radio2PC" class="ox-3127012898-wlEmoticon ox-3127012898-wlEmoticon-smile" style="border-style: none;" src="cid:2C4526D160074F49B7D50F7AA1AB0F8E@radio2PC" alt="Smile"></div><div> </div><div>Happy Friday everyone.</div><div>Pippa</div><div> </div><div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: 'Calibri'; font-weight: normal; color: #000000; font-style: normal; display: inline;"><div style="font: 10pt tahoma;"><div> </div><div style="background: #f5f5f5;"><div style="font-color: black;"><strong>From:</strong> <a>Canalside's The Thread</a></div><div><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, December 2, 2016 11:21 AM</div><div><strong>To:</strong> <a>'The Community Media Association Discussion List'</a></div><div><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio</div></div></div><div> </div></div><div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: 'Calibri'; font-weight: normal; color: #000000; font-style: normal; display: inline;"><div class="ox-3127012898-WordSection1"><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Dear All</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">I suggested to PRS/PPL back in 2011 that would it not make sense for all concerned to have :-</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">1)<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';">      </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">One collection point</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">2)<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';">      </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">One fee covering everything</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">3)<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';">      </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">One fee (be it either a minimum fee or an average fee)</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Like quite a lot of my suggestions over the years, they were dismissed and laughed at. Very odd though that 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 years later down the line we always end regurgitating them and tagging them with ‘’ah, that’s not a bad idea’’    or actually implementing them full stop. Remember that most do actually agree but fall under the category of the ‘silent majority’</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">If you would like me to give you a list of those observations, pointers etc    I can do ---- I’m up to 15 at the moment on my list, which is exactly the same number as my ‘’well I told you so’s’’</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Best if we get to the nitty gritty though</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">We have to face up to the fact that in all changes of things and tweaks to things some folk will be slightly better off and some will be slightly worse off (that’s life) ……………. But alas ----- unless we start working as a team and a fraternity we will forever be going around in circles and being picked off one by one and walked on by the authorities.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">I hope at the AGM this year we actually walk out of the place at 5:30pm with a clear vision as to     what works, what doesn’t work, what we have concerns about, and most importantly what are we going to do about it, as whinging for the next 14 Years (me included) is not acceptable. I would also hope that we stop being nicey nicey all the time and face up to the fact that sometimes sadly we have to be controversial and we have to say the things that are maybe not pleasant.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">I’m afraid with this PRS/PPL malarkey it does drop on my ‘’well I told you so list’’           unless I have missed something, we haven’t really gained anything ???   or that’s how it seems.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">I hear what Bill is saying and there are some changes to the DAB malarkey      however, the truth is, the majority of us couldn’t even afford a Yogurt Carton and a piece of string, let alone DAB …… so it’s a none starter.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">NBR or whatever you call it in relation to Community Radio    HAS TO GO BON VOYAGE / DUMP IT !    it rubs against everything we stand for, I have been saying this since day dot. We (Canalside) do not fill this form in as I refuse to do so. I suggest everyone else (all 270) do exactly the same. It isn’t NET it is GROSS …………. And Gross has no bearing on what we do.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">We (Community Radio) are charitable, With some actually fully fledged charities, all not-for-profit and the rules that we operate under (or is that Straight-Jacket?) means we do exactly what it says on the Can/Tin.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">With this in mind (I repeat) come the end of the financial year be that in our case November but others maybe April the end result is = not a Pot to Pee in. What do PRS/PPL/DCMS etc not understand about that ??  it seems quite simple to grasp.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Our report is NOTHING TO REPORT apart from the fact on average we play 9 songs per-hour. If that changes we will inform PRS/PPL    we shouldn’t have to keep informing them every 12 Months.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Come November our Pockets are empty.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">I didn’t really fill the consultation in for a number of reasons :-</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">1)<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';">      </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">They already know my/our thoughts on this as I have told them directly on at least 20 occasions since 2008</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">2)<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';">      </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">It isn’t a consultation really coz the folk at the other end aren’t reading it, nor are they listening</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">3)<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';">      </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">The Agenda (if we are being honest with each other) couldn’t really give a flying cactus about us, it was more for making things easier for PRS/PPL          not actually a crime, but hey, can we not work together on this please ?</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">4)<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';">      </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">And finally --- when Lucy and Laura (who are two lovely people may I add) were in Birmingham, the whole exercise was pointless. Just like all the other nonsenses    ie:- BBC man etc etc     we sit for an hour being told what the rules are (we already know the rules)(in fact I know them better than the authorities)    they tell more small print, yet again what we already know and then hey presto we get to Bingo time and we’ve run out of time because someone has a Train to catch. This is NOT a consultation, it is a stitch up. As long as we tip toe and pussyfoot along with it we will for ever be on the receiving end.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">My suggestion is a couple of Grand (£1600 - £2000) for the LOT ……….. this includes the FM and Internet for both and in our case here at Canalside – if we wish to run a small 100/200 stream training facility for the youngsters that gets chucked in for free. We make no money from this whatsoever but they charge us. We feel so strongly about it that we will possibly be stopping the payments now as this consultation seems to have achieved not much at all.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Finally, there is NO REPORTING as there is nothing to report. When we have paid all of our bills we end up with not a sausage and then we start afresh the following year.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">This is all plain sailing and common sense to me ….. trouble is when Community Radio started Common sense went out the window.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Absolutely finally I would like to put my suggestion forward and ask if the CMA and Members will back it. If not, then that’s fine, but a word of warning ---- you/we are now at a crossroads, get some fire in your bellies (take note) or else Community Radio in the next number of years in the main will start to fade away, and that would be a travesty after all the hard graft we have each put in.</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Obviously, those just on T’internet would pay about £600 quid-dish ??</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Just done the Maths, and as you know I’m not very good at Maths (nor English LOL)     and to my calculation 270 x £2000 = £540,000 unless I have the decimal point in the wrong place (sorry if I have got this wrong)                    that’s not a bad little guaranteed tickle though for Chrimbo</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Thank you</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">H Dumpty / Doormat FM</span></p><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><div><div style="border-top: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; border-right: none; border-bottom: none; border-left: none; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;"><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: windowtext;"> cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Ian Hickling<br><strong>Sent:</strong> 01 December 2016 17:17<br><strong>To:</strong> The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l@mailman.commedia.org.uk><br><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio</span></p></div></div><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p><div id="ox-3127012898-divtagdefaultwrapper"><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">That's Stanford University and US law - no relevance over here fortunately.</span></p><p> </p><div id="ox-3127012898-Signature"><div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal" style="background: white; line-height: 17.05pt;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: #222222;">Ian Hickling</span></p></div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal" style="background: white; line-height: 17.05pt;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: #222222;">Partner</span><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: #444444;"><br><br></span><a href="http://www.transplanuk.com/" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: #1155cc;"><img id="ox-3127012898-_x0000_i1027" style="width: 1.979in; height: 0.625in;" src="https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/2SkDsnIzSZgRbNnNKBSiwxiFhFQWRGV55mTjVL23fulnJpstZmYxeKrrYefY4qxiSgkMrAETld64XINLXCsujE_zI5gAsQyWeCWvHixcrNYtar3Sij4YlVBgN2NSQ-n2DsgZvrnpWZlfwCQ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.transplanuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/transp" alt="https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/2SkDsnIzSZgRbNnNKBSiwxiFhFQWRGV55mTjVL23fulnJpstZmYxeKrrYefY4qxiSgkMrAETld64XINLXCsujE_zI5gAsQyWeCWvHixcrNYtar3Sij4YlVBgN2NSQ-n2DsgZvrnpWZlfwCQ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.transplanuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/transplan_UK_weblogo_190x60.png" width="190" height="60" border="0"></span></a></p><div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal" style="background: white; line-height: 17.05pt;"><em><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #222222;">Office: 016 3557 8435  (07h to 22h GTS)</span></em></p></div><div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal" style="background: white; line-height: 17.05pt;"><em><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #222222;">Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)</span></em></p></div><div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal" style="background: white; line-height: 17.05pt;"><em><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #222222;">6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS</span></em></p></div></div></div><div class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><hr align="center" size="2" width="98%"></div><div id="ox-3127012898-divRplyFwdMsg"><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">From:</span></strong> <a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;"> <</span><a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">> on behalf of Tony Bailey <</span><a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">ravensound@pilgrimsound.co.uk</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">><br><strong>Sent:</strong> 01 December 2016 16:39:26<br><strong>To:</strong> </span><a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">cma-l@mailman.commedia.org.uk</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;"><br><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio</span></p><div><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal"> </p></div></div><div><div><p class="ox-3127012898-MsoNormal">The term "licence" or "license" is used by an authority but it has also been used to give rights under an agreement:<br><br><a href="http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/introduction/permission-tools-licenses-and-releases/">http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/introduction/permission-tools-licenses-and-releases/</a><br><br>Tony Bailey<br><br>On 01/12/16 14:03, Ian Hickling wrote:</p></div><blockquote><div id="ox-3127012898-divtagdefaultwrapper"><p> </p><p>That's very informative - thank you.</p><p>But they've left out (or - Heaven forbid - ignored) two important aspects of the responses to their Joint Consultation:</p><p> </p><p>1 - If this is a Licence - as opposed to a Service Charge - why isn't it issued by the only Licensing Authority in the system - which is Ofcom?  PRSfM and PPL are commercial businesses - not Licensing Authorities</p><p> </p><p>2 - Despite many requests - there is still no categorical statement as to why PRSfM and PPL are entitled in Law to claim these payments - and precisely where this is written in UK Legislation.</p><p> </p><p>Sorry - I know I've asked this many times before - but it's something we do need to have laid before us - and by the very people who are making these far-reaching demands.</p><p>My feeling is that broadcasters large and small who part with their hard-earned cash before being happy with the answers are rather unwise.</p><p>This isn't going to go away.<br>It makes no odds to us - we don't pay these charges - it's you out there, our friends and loyal Clients, that I'm concerned about.</p><p> </p><div id="ox-3127012898-Signature"><div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal">Ian Hickling</p></div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Partner</p><div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal"><a href="http://www.transplanuk.com/" target="_blank"><em><span style="text-decoration: none; color: black;">Office: 016 3557 8435  (07h to 22h GTS)</span></em></a></p></div><div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal"><a href="http://www.transplanuk.com/" target="_blank"><em><span style="text-decoration: none; color: black;">Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)</span></em></a></p></div><div><p class="ox-3127012898-ecxmsonormal"><a href="http://www.transplanuk.com/" target="_blank"><em><span style="text-decoration: none; color: black;">6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS</span></em></a></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><p> <br></p><hr>_______________________________________________<br><br>Reply - cma-l@commedia.org.uk<br><br>The cma-l mailing list is a members' service provided by the Community Media Association - http://www.commedia.org.uk<br>Twitter: http://twitter.com/community_media<br>http://www.facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation<br>Canstream Internet Radio & Video: http://www.canstream.co.uk/<br>_______________________________________________<br><br>Mailing list guidelines: http://www.commedia.org.uk/about/cma-email-lists/email-list-guidelines/<br>_______________________________________________<br><br>To unsubscribe or manage your CMA-L mailing list subscription please visit:<br>http://mailman.commedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cma-l</div></div></div></blockquote><p><br> </p><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br><br>Reply - cma-l@commedia.org.uk<br><br>The cma-l mailing list is a members' service provided by the Community Media Association - http://www.commedia.org.uk<br>Twitter: http://twitter.com/community_media<br>http://www.facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation<br>Canstream Internet Radio & Video: http://www.canstream.co.uk/<br>_______________________________________________<br><br>Mailing list guidelines: http://www.commedia.org.uk/about/cma-email-lists/email-list-guidelines/<br>_______________________________________________<br><br>To unsubscribe or manage your CMA-L mailing list subscription please visit:<br>http://mailman.commedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cma-l</blockquote></body></html>