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</head><body><p>Actually Richard, I don't think that's exactly right.</p><p>The legislation certainly gives societies the right to apply to the Copyright Tribunal for legal recognition of a licensing scheme for a group of rights holders, or to vary a scheme, but it is up to the societies to set the scale of fees in their schemes. The Copyright Tribunal becomes involved in ruling on the details of fees only if specifically asked to.</p><p>The Copyright Tribunal's main role is to act as an arbiter if and when prospective rights user finds themselves unable to agree grant of a licence or licence terms with a relevant collecting society. Going before the tribunal is an expensive and protracted process much the same as bringing any other civil case to court (though there is now a fast track available to some cases). This of course can effectively deny justice to users who do not have the financial and legal resources that PPL or PRS can bring to bear in court, and who cannot risk the potentially huge legal bills.</p><p>The significance of this is that PPL and PRS could, if they were minded to, agree to offer different fee scales for different sectors, for example for not-for-profit local radio, They are not obliged to have the fees set by Copyright Tribunal. Indeed, I'm not aware of any tribunal ruling on the fees to be applied to community/non-profit radio stations, only for the BBC and for commercial stations (AIRC v PPL back in 1993). That settlement, incidentally, did not give them a right to charge a minimum fee. </p><p>I stand to be corrected, but I don't think any society has gone before the tribunal on any proposal to amend or extend their scheme to cover non-profit radio, they have just come up with fresh agreements for community radio, offering broadly the same terms as for large scale commercial radio.</p><p>They do of course have a duty to ensure that their fees are equitable and reasonable, but on the face of it it would seem perfectly fair and reasonable to have a lower scale of charges for radio stations whose aim is not to make private profit from use of the copyright material, and I don't believe it would be mandatory to refer such a scale of fees to the Copyright tribunal for approval if the licencees accepted it.</p><p>Alex</p><blockquote type="cite"><!-- [if !mso]> --><!-- <![endif] --><!-- [if gte mso 9]> --><!-- <![endif] --><!-- [if gte mso 9]> --><!-- <![endif] -->On 16 September 2016 at 11:21 Richard Berry <richard.berry@sunderland.ac.uk> wrote:<br><br><div class="ox-47cecf61e6-Section1"><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">The legislation sets the framework, and the Copyright Tribunal set the fees (See here: <a href="http://www.prsformusic.com/aboutus/faqs/prsformusicfaqs/pages/default.aspx#9"> http://www.prsformusic.com/aboutus/faqs/prsformusicfaqs/pages/default.aspx#9</a>  here: <a href="https://www.gov.uk/guidance/licensing-bodies-and-collective-management-organisations"> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/licensing-bodies-and-collective-management-organisations</a> and here: <a href="https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/copyright-tribunal">https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/copyright-tribunal</a>)</span></p><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">The general thrust is copyright owners have the right under law to be paid when their work is used. When you buy a CD you are granted permission (a licence) to play that music in certain situations. That does not include a public performance, where an additional licence must be granted. PRS and PPL are member organisations (As is EOS in Wales) who collect royalties for performances by their members. This makes it easier for us and for them. The fees are set by the bodies and overseen by Government. Obviously, the members want to biggest payment possible to offset losses through piracy etc.  You potentially don’t have to pay THEM the fees, but you would then permission for each element of the copyrights for everything that you did play. For example, the current number one “Closer” has 7 listed writers with which you would need to reach agreement. You’d also need consent from the publishers, the record label (possibly the owner and the subsidiaries) as well as the artists. Plus clearances for any samples used. Whilst we’d all wish the fees were lower, a blanket licence is by the far the easiest solution. If you object, you could of course run an all speech station, one where artists waive their rights (Amazing Radio did this for a bit) or music from artists who are not members. </span></p><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">The power is with artists (see this about the split in Wales <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-30961059">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-30961059</a>) It’s a shame you missed the PRS/PPL session last weeken Ian, we were looking forward to your questions</span></p><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Best wishes</span></p><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Richard</span></p><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">                                                                                                                                                                                           </span></p><div><div style="border: none; border-top: solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;"><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';"> cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Two Lochs Radio<br> <strong>Sent:</strong> 16 September 2016 10:25<br> <strong>To:</strong> office@thethread.org.uk; Ian Hickling; The Community Media Association Discussion List<br> <strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [cma-l] PPL and PRSfM - Community Radio "Licences"</span></p></div></div><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"> </p><p>The answer to the simple question is the same as it has been every time you've asked Ian. It's the: Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 Sections 116-123.</p><p> </p><p>Alex.</p><blockquote><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;">On 16 September 2016 at 06:54 Ian Hickling <transplanfm@hotmail.com> wrote:</p><div id="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-divtagdefaultwrapper"><p style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><p style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">The very basic challenge I've posed - amongst others - to PRSfM and PPL is:</span></p><p style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><p style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Show me please where in the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 - or any other legislation - it says that I have to pay you exclusively the fees you are demanding.</span></p><p style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><p style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Surely a very simple question - to which an answer is strangely not forthcoming?</span></p><p style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><div id="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-Signature"><div><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-ecxmsonormal" style="line-height: 13.65pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #222222;">Ian Hickling</span></p></div><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-ecxmsonormal" style="line-height: 13.65pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #222222;">Partner</span><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #444444;"><br> <br> <a id="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-LPNoLP" href="http://www.transplanuk.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #1155cc; text-decoration: none;"><img id="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-ecx_x005f_x0000_i1025" src="https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/2SkDsnIzSZgRbNnNKBSiwxiFhFQWRGV55mTjVL23fulnJpstZmYxeKrrYefY4qxiSgkMrAETld64XINLXCsujE_zI5gAsQyWeCWvHixcrNYtar3Sij4YlVBgN2NSQ-n2DsgZvrnpWZlfwCQ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.transplanuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/transplan_UK_weblogo_190x60.png" alt="" border="0"></span></a></span></p><div><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-ecxmsonormal" style="line-height: 13.65pt; background: white;"><em><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: #222222;">Office: 016 3557 8435  (07h to 22h GTS)</span></em></p></div><div><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-ecxmsonormal" style="line-height: 13.65pt; background: white;"><em><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: #222222;">Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)</span></em></p></div><div><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-ecxmsonormal" style="line-height: 13.65pt; background: white;"><em><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: #222222;">6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS</span></em></p></div></div><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt; background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><div><div class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; background: white;" align="center"><hr align="center" size="3" width="98%"></div><div id="ox-47cecf61e6-ox-83d840d7ab-divRplyFwdMsg"><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk <cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk> on behalf of Alex Gray, Two Lochs Radio <tlr@gairloch.co.uk><br> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Sent:</span></strong> 15 September 2016 17:28<br> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">To:</span></strong> office@thethread.org.uk; 'The Community Media Association Discussion List'<br> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Subject:</span></strong> Re: [cma-l] FW: PPL and PRS for Music Community Radio Licences - Customer Consultation</span></p><div><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Dear Mr Numpty</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">The rough answers to your questions are:</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; text-indent: -18.0pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">1)</span><span style="font-size: 7.0pt; color: black;">      </span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Number of songs played per-hour      average</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">The only proposed change in reporting is that there will no longer be a need to submit an estimate of future revenue at the start of a year, only the actual revenue at the end of the year.</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; text-indent: -18.0pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">2)</span><span style="font-size: 7.0pt; color: black;">      </span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Standard budget reasonable cost payment                           bearing – in – mind that</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Whichever is the greater of:</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Minimum combined fee of £1798/year, or</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Combined royalties of 5% on 80% of any broadcast advertising or sponsorship income</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; text-indent: -18.0pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">3)</span><span style="font-size: 7.0pt; color: black;">      </span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">We are not for profit and our NET revenue is zero / zilch / diddly squat</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">That status is of no interest to PPL or PRS – they levy the royalties on 80% of your broadcast (and/or simulcast) advertising and sponsorship income, regardless of whether or not it leads to profit or you spend it all on coffee and doughnuts for the presenters. If you have no such income, then you would pay only the minimum fees. </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; text-indent: -18.0pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">4)</span><span style="font-size: 7.0pt; color: black;">      </span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">No reporting, as there is nothing to report apart from song usage</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">See 1) above</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Hope that fits within the attention span of a goldfish - good luck with the plates!</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Alex</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">----------------------------</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Anything outside of this, my attention span has suddenly developed into that of a Goldfish.</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">I fill the form in later as I need to get back to the 50 Plates ….. well    42 actually, as 8 have just dropped off</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; margin-bottom: .0001pt; background: white;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Nick Dumpty</span></p></div><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt; background: white;"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><div class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; background: white;" align="center"><hr style="color: #909090;" align="center" size="1" width="99%"></div><table class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormalTable mce-item-table" style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td style="padding: 0cm 9.0pt 0cm 4.8pt;"><p class="ox-47cecf61e6-MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus"><span style="text-decoration: none;"><img id="ox-47cecf61e6-_x0000_i1028" src="http://static.avast.com/emails/avast-mail-stamp.png" alt="Avast logo" border="0"></span></a></p></td><td style="padding: .75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;"><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; 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