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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'><font color="#000000">I feel my point may have been misunderstood - my apologies.</font><div><font color="#000000">I was drawing the distinction between a Licence as issued by Ofcom which in the terminology of the regulations "does not attract VAT" - and the payment demanded by the collection societies to which VAT is applied.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">This I suggested indicates that they are not Licences within the definition employed by HMRC - which is a very highly respected authority in these matters.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">Whether or not any organisation is registered for VAT is an entirely different matter.<br>The concept is very simple.<br>If you are registered you are required by law to charge VAT on all sales unless you can be sure the buyer is exempt.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">A Registered Charity can fall into that category.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">Once you have registered you can claim back all VAT paid (with a few specific exceptions) on materials for the previous three years and services over the previous six months.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">That can amount to several thousands and is well worth doing.<br>You can register even though your turnover is below the threshold and I would recommend this as an excellent move.<br>You have to submit a Return every three months - which takes me about a day to do - but the money we save makes it well worth the effort put in.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">The only slight disadvantage is that if you are selling to a business which is not VAT-Registered - obviously it has to pay it - and we regularly get asked if there is any way we can get round it.<br>No is the answer - I don't fancy going to jail - thank you.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">But - actually - there is a solution.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">You get VAT registration my valued Client - and start saving a large amount like we do!<br id="FontBreak"></font><br><br><div style="line-height:21.3px;color:rgb(68, 68, 68);background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="line-height:22.72px;background-image:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><span style="line-height:22.72px;"><span style="line-height:22.72px;color:rgb(34, 34, 34);">Ian Hickling</span></span><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);line-height:17.9867px;line-height:17.9867px;"></span></font></p></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="line-height:22.72px;color:rgb(68, 68, 68);background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="line-height:22.72px;color:rgb(34, 34, 34);background-image:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial;"><font face="Calibri" size="3">Partner</font></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;line-height:22.72px;"><br style="line-height:22.72px;"><br style="line-height:22.72px;"><a href="http://www.transplanuk.com/" target="_blank" style="line-height:22.72px;font-weight:inherit;color:blue;cursor:pointer;"><span style="line-height:22.72px;color:rgb(17, 85, 204);text-decoration:none;"><img border="0" id="ecx_x0000_i1025" src="https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/2SkDsnIzSZgRbNnNKBSiwxiFhFQWRGV55mTjVL23fulnJpstZmYxeKrrYefY4qxiSgkMrAETld64XINLXCsujE_zI5gAsQyWeCWvHixcrNYtar3Sij4YlVBgN2NSQ-n2DsgZvrnpWZlfwCQ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.transplanuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/transplan_UK_weblogo_190x60.png" style="line-height:22.72px;border:none;"></span></a></span></p><div style="line-height:21.3px;color:rgb(68, 68, 68);background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="line-height:22.72px;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif;"><font size="2"><i style="line-height:22.72px;"><span style="line-height:22.72px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(34, 34, 34);">Office: 016 3557 8435 (07h to 22h GTS)</span></i><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(34, 34, 34);line-height:17.9867px;"></span></font></p></div><div style="line-height:21.3px;color:rgb(68, 68, 68);background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="line-height:22.72px;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif;"><font size="2"><i style="line-height:22.72px;"><span style="line-height:22.72px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(34, 34, 34);">Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)</span></i><span style="line-height:17.9867px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(34, 34, 34);"></span></font></p></div><div style="line-height:21.3px;color:rgb(68, 68, 68);background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="line-height:22.72px;font-family:'Times New Roman', serif;"><i style="line-height:22.72px;"><span style="line-height:22.72px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(34, 34, 34);"><font size="2">6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS</font></span></i></p></div><br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 12:46:43 +0100<br>From: tlr@gairloch.co.uk<br>To: cma-l@mailman.commedia.org.uk<br>Subject: Re: [cma-l] Joint PRS/PPL licences<br><br>
I guess the first thing to try is calling HMRC National Advice Centre on 0845 010 9000 - good luck!<BR>Like you Richard, I am pretty sure PPL will have someone specializing in these matters on the staff or as a consultant, and will have worked out what options are available, and which is to their best financial interest.<BR>A take-home point though is that CR stations shouldn't assume it is best not register for VAT voluntarily - particularly in the start-up period or during redevelopment when you are shelling out loads of VAT for equipment or buildings, but receiving grants and donations that are outside the scope of VAT, you can be a net recipient of VAT repayments for a couple of years at least. <BR>We saved thousands by registering just after start-up and have found it in our interest to remain registered since, so we aren't bothered by whether or not PPL and co add VAT to their bills. The majority of our taxable supplies to other people (eg advertising and sponsorship sales) are to people who are VAT-registered or exempt, so they aren't bothered by us having to add VAT to our invoices.<BR>Alex<BR><blockquote>On 04 July 2016 at 12:08 Richard Hilton <Richard.Hilton@bitc.org.uk> wrote:<br><br><div class="ecxox-16537c4b41-WordSection1"><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">Taking up the VAT point (so feel free to skip this post if VAT leaves you cold!).</span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">VAT; given their size I’d be amazed if they don’t have someone on their staff who is a VAT expert or that they can’t call on professional advisors on whether to charge VAT or not. So at some time in the past they should have taken advice on this.</span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">However, it would have depended on the question they asked the ‘VAT man’ and, believe it or not, it may well suit them to charge VAT. For example, they may be partially exempt for VAT purpose and if you are and depending on your scheme charging VAT on as much as possible can be beneficial. </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">The bottom line is that it is worth challenging them why they charge VAT and when they last challenged the VAT Man why they should be charging VAT.</span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">I’d be interested to know if anyone charged VAT by a supplier (i.e. PRS / PPL) can go straight to the ‘VAT Man’ and query why they are being charged VAT. Anyone know the answer?</span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">Richard</span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;"><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';"> cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Ian Hickling<br> <strong>Sent:</strong> 04 July 2016 08:21<br> <strong>To:</strong> The Community Media Association Discussion List<br> <strong>Subject:</strong> [cma-l] Joint PRS/PPL licences</span></p></div></div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:black;">Thanks Alex - clarity personified.<br> Following on from that, let's look at another aspect of the operation of the collecting societies.</span></p><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:black;">Where else in the conduct of a normal business are you expected to pay for a service voluntarily and at your own instigation?</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:black;">PPL and PRSfM should determine from published information - as anyone can - who is broadcasting and then should generate a conventional Invoice explaining in proper legal terms why the debt has been incurred.</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:black;">I still maintain that - regardless of colloquial terminology - as they are subject to VAT, these royalty payments are "services" - not "licences".</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:black;">The VAT Regulations make the distinction very clearly and they are firmly enforced as we all know.</span></p><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style="line-height:17.05pt;background:white;"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#222222;">Ian Hickling</span></p></div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style="line-height:17.05pt;background:white;"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#222222;">Partner</span><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#444444;"><br> <br> <a href="http://www.transplanuk.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc;text-decoration:none;"><img id="ecxox-16537c4b41-ecx_x005f_x0000_i1025" src="https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/2SkDsnIzSZgRbNnNKBSiwxiFhFQWRGV55mTjVL23fulnJpstZmYxeKrrYefY4qxiSgkMrAETld64XINLXCsujE_zI5gAsQyWeCWvHixcrNYtar3Sij4YlVBgN2NSQ-n2DsgZvrnpWZlfwCQ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.transplanuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/transplan_UK_weblogo_190x60.png" alt="" border="0"></span></a></span></p><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style="line-height:17.05pt;background:white;"><em><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';color:#222222;">Office: 016 3557 8435 (07h to 22h GTS)</span></em></p></div><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style="line-height:17.05pt;background:white;"><em><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';color:#222222;">Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)</span></em></p></div><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style="line-height:17.05pt;background:white;"><em><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';color:#222222;">6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS</span></em></p></div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';"> </span></p><div><div class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;" align="center"><hr id="ecxox-16537c4b41-stopSpelling" align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';">From: <a href="mailto:tlr@gairloch.co.uk">tlr@gairloch.co.uk</a><br> To: <a href="mailto:cma-l@mailman.commedia.org.uk">cma-l@mailman.commedia.org.uk</a><br> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 13:59:17 +0100<br> Subject: Re: [cma-l] Joint PRS/PPL licences</span></p><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">Ian, the collecting societies <strong>are</strong> authorized by statute (the 1988 Copyright Act). But it any event, legal agreements granting permissions to use copyright are conventionally referred to as ‘licences’, whether issued by a private holder, commercial company or collecting society. A licence is a formally granted consent to do something which the licensor otherwise has the right to restrict.</span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">I mentioned this in a posting a few days. It is in return for this statutorily granted privilege that they are subject to the legal option of a user deeming their own licence and taking recourse to the Copyright Tribunal.</span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">NB, and strictly playing devil’s advocate, they are <strong>not</strong> commercial organizations any more than the typical CR station, just a lot bigger and less reputable in their behaviour. They are not-for-profit membership societies incorporated as Companies Limited by Guarantee. </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">See also PPL’s constitution at <a href="http://www.ppluk.com/Documents/Code%20of%20Conduct%20PDFs/PPL%20Articles%20of%20Association%202016.pdf" target="_blank"> http://www.ppluk.com/Documents/Code%20of%20Conduct%20PDFs/PPL%20Articles%20of%20Association%202016.pdf</a></span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;">Alex </span></p><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;"><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';"> <a href="mailto:cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk">cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk</a> [<a href="mailto:cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk">mailto:cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk</a>] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Ian Hickling<br> <strong>Sent:</strong> 02 July 2016 14:53<br> <strong>To:</strong> The Community Media Association Discussion List <<a href="mailto:cma-l@mailman.commedia.org.uk">cma-l@mailman.commedia.org.uk</a>>; Bill Best <<a href="mailto:bill.best@commedia.org.uk">bill.best@commedia.org.uk</a>>; <a href="mailto:colin@susyradio.com">colin@susyradio.com</a><br> <strong>Subject:</strong> [cma-l] Joint PRS/PPL licences</span></p></div></div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';"> </span></p><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:black;">As ever - thanks Bill for taking the trouble to spell out the situation.</span></p><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:black;">I would however - at the risk of invoking terminal boredom on the part of some of our friends - query just one word - "licence!".</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:black;">These are not licences.</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:black;">A licence is permission issued by a Statutory Authority to authorise the Licensee to perform a specific function.<br> Ofcom is precisely that, H M Government's appointed Broadcast Regulator - and in the case of an RSL issues the BA (Broadcasting Act) Licence at £30 per day and the WTA (Wireless Telegraphy Act) Licence at £40 per day.</span></p></div></div></div><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';"> </span></p><table class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormalTable" style="border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt;" border="1" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td style="width:41.25pt;border:none;padding:9.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;" width="55"><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none;"><img id="ecxox-16537c4b41-_x0000_i1027" style="width:46px;height:29px;" src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/2016/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange_184x116-v1.png" alt="" width="46" height="29" border="0"></span></a></p></td><td style="width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:9.0pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;" width="470"><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal" style="line-height:13.5pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';color:#41424e;">Virus-free. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"> <span style="color:#4453ea;">www.avast.com</span></a> </span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="ecxox-16537c4b41-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';"><br> _______________________________________________ Reply - <a href="mailto:cma-l@commedia.org.uk"> cma-l@commedia.org.uk</a> The cma-l mailing list is a members' service provided by the Community Media Association - <a href="http://www.commedia.org.uk" target="_blank">http://www.commedia.org.uk</a> Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/community_media" target="_blank"> http://twitter.com/community_media</a> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation" target="_blank"> http://www.facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation</a> Canstream Internet Radio & Video: <a href="http://www.canstream.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.canstream.co.uk/</a> _______________________________________________ Mailing list guidelines: <a href="http://www.commedia.org.uk/about/cma-email-lists/email-list-guidelines/" target="_blank"> http://www.commedia.org.uk/about/cma-email-lists/email-list-guidelines/</a> _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe or manage your CMA-L mailing list subscription please visit: <a href="http://mailman.commedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cma-l" target="_blank">http://mailman.commedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cma-l</a></span></p></div></div></div></div>The information in this email is confidential and may be privileged. 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