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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>James et al<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I know my view on all this Royalties
malarkey is well off-piste and possibly equates to a lone voice crying in the
wilderness BUT … we believe what we believe at the end of the day ...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1) Someone / and artist puts their product
/ song up for sale<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2) I buy it … I pay them, I give
them money for their product because they have put it up for sale and I like
it. If I don’t like it, I don’t buy it<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3) I then stick it on our Radio Broadcasts
(which actually is exactly what happens) by doing so ‘’’others’’’
hear the song and they likewise go out and purchase the song. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>4) A group like PPL, then charge me for
doing so ????? an amazing system and possibly one of the best in the
World. Ought there not be a group where we charge them and they fill
bureaucratic forms in for us and we’ll take 85% of their Net (whatever that
may be ?)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I do not may I add advocate piracy and
steeling the product and broadcasting it ! …………
the whole thing is a nonsense and I have never been able to get my head around
it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The song writer if different to the
performer gets paid by the record Company and/or artist and they pay them on
results and sales. That’s how life works … but for some unknown
reason, not in this particular field. And folk have been going along with it
since the 1920’s ! barmy !<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Each time I drive my car, should I pay
Skoda 20p ?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>These are my thoughts ……….best
get back to the wilderness<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Nick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:<st1:PersonName w:st="on">cma-l-bounces@mailman.commedia.org.uk</st1:PersonName>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>James Cridland<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 13 March 2015 18:38<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">The
Community Media Association Discussion List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [cma-l] The Cost Of
The DAB Trials</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think
Pulse in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Somerset</st1:place></st1:City>
is another example of a CR on DAB as well. I think you could argue in all cases
that there is significantly more exploitation of content on a DAB simulcast for
a CR, since the coverage area is a lot larger. I don't think you can argue that
for the small scale trial.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>It is
really interesting that a CR which is also online and on DAB is charged more
than a commercial radio station. Commercial radio get DAB simulcasts included
in their fee, and as far as I am aware they also have no limit to the total
simultaneous listeners on their streams. (When I was at Virgin, our limit would
have roughly been about 60,000 by the way.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I would
certainly think that CR has a good argument to go for "whatever is
cheaper", and if a commercial radio licence works out cheaper, you should
get and pay for that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On the monopolies thing: there isn't a monopoly here,
I'm told. You can deal direct with record companies - many online companies
have done. But that means that instead of a catch-all licence covering (almost)
and track you'll ever want to play, it massively changes the complexity of what
you do, since you end up only being able to play Warner tracks and not Sony
ones, for example. You can also buy music licencing from any EU country's music
licencing agency, but - oh, ho - you'll find they all charge the same based on
a reciprocal agreement. Sounds less like a monopoly and more like a cartel, you
might think, but apparently it isn't that either.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 17:42 Phil Edmonds <<a
href="mailto:lists@philedmonds.info">lists@philedmonds.info</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>With regards to PRS/PPL. I've not got a big issue with the model where
a<br>
percentage of your "commercial" revenue is what you pay in music<br>
royalties. Just as if you paid a sales person a percentage commission, a<br>
percentage of your revenue goes towards music royalties. You've a profit<br>
margin on any sale - just the same as any business be that small or<br>
multi-national.<br>
<br>
The idea of a "minimum fee" on music royalties also makes sense, but
at<br>
what level that minimum fee is set at is a question for another day.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
With regards to a current Community Radio operator providing their<br>
service on one of these small scale DAB trials.<br>
<br>
From what I've gleaned so far:<br>
<br>
PRS will not charge an additional fee for DAB simulcast for a FM/AM<br>
Community Radio station.<br>
<br>
PRS have a similar arrangement for Commercial stations.<br>
<br>
PPL want an additional fee for DAB simulcast of a FM/AM Community Radio<br>
station.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure what PPL charge commercial radio stations for a DAB simulcast.<br>
If they don't charge extra I'd suggest there is every argument that<br>
Community Radio should be treated the same. If they do charge extra it's<br>
an argument we are not going to win in the short term.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What is the situation for existing "Community Radio" operators who
also<br>
have a DAB outlet?<br>
<br>
There is two cases I can think of:<br>
<br>
1) Wirral Radio (formerly 7 Waves) - who simulcast their FM Community<br>
Radio licensed service on their local DAB Multiplex. Broadly servicing<br>
the same target area.<br>
<br>
2) Gaydio - who operate a number of DAB outlets around the country away<br>
from their FM Community Radio licensed service in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Manchester</st1:place></st1:City>. They do<br>
run some spilt advertising breaks and some specific local programming on<br>
their <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Manchester</st1:place></st1:City>
outlet.<br>
<br>
<br>
Therefore as far as music royalties are concerned their must already be<br>
a president set for a Community Radio service providing a service on DAB<br>
to the same geographic area and to a different geographic area.<br>
<br>
Potentially any current community radio station may wish to provide<br>
programming on one of these DAB trials either to "substantially the same<br>
area" or "a different" area to what they currently serve on FM
or AM.<br>
<br>
If the current terms with Wirral Radio / Gaydio are good - then anything<br>
new should be the same. If they are bad, then they will hopefully be in<br>
agreement to negotiation of better terms!<br>
<br>
<br>
Also to be remembered that while Community Radio stations with an Ofcom<br>
"Community Radio" licence have specific requirements to be non-profit<br>
and provide social gain, services provided on any current DAB service,<br>
the trial small scale DAB services, or as it currently stands any future<br>
small scale DAB services will have no "mandate" to such non profit,<br>
social gain ethos.<br>
<br>
That's not to say that many, or all, of the characteristics of Community<br>
Radio as we know it can't be delivered via a licensing regime not<br>
restricted to 'community radio'. After all there are several Community<br>
Radio stations in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Scotland</st1:place></st1:country-region>
who "subscribe" to the CMA charter who hold<br>
"ILR/Commercial" radio licences.<br>
<br>
I think the Community Radio sector needs to make it known that<br>
small-scale DAB may be appropriate for some of us - and make sure that<br>
the small handful of "big players" don't monopolise any future small<br>
scale DAB licensing and price the small players out of the game. Would I<br>
go as far a suggesting a "must carry" rule? I'm not sure. I think
there<br>
is some rules regarding carriage of BBC local stations on commercial<br>
multiplexes? (Calling Mr Cridland as potentialy man in the know here.)<br>
<br>
This thought takes me full circle to Nick at Canalside's "red tape"<br>
issues with the music royalty bodies. My take is it just highlights how<br>
strapped for resources Community Radio is - there isn't an accountant<br>
sat in the corner who could rattle off the required figures in five<br>
minutes. The level that many, probably the majority, of Community Radio<br>
stations are working at is the sub-micro level. It also goes to show<br>
that there's a long way to go in supporting each other, for every Nick<br>
who goes bleary eyed at the latest request from PPL, there will be<br>
another who could look at the books and fill in the forms almost with<br>
their eyes shut.<br>
<br>
Phil.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 13/03/2015 15:18, Bill Best wrote:<br>
> Many thanks Tony.<br>
><br>
> There is a CMA Council meeting tomorrow and I'll raise this matter about<br>
> contacting the Competition and Markets Authority about copyright issues.<br>
><br>
> Best regards<br>
><br>
> Bill<br>
> --<br>
> Operations Manager<br>
> Community Media Association<br>
> <a href="http://www.commedia.org.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.commedia.org.uk/</a><br>
> <a href="https://twitter.com/community_media" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/community_media</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation</a><br>
><br>
> Canstream Internet Radio & Video<br>
> <a href="http://www.canstream.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.canstream.co.uk/</a><br>
> <a href="https://twitter.com/canstream" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/canstream</a><br>
><br>
> On 13 March 2015 at 15:01, Tony Bailey <<a
href="mailto:ravensound@pilgrimsound.co.uk" target="_blank">ravensound@pilgrimsound.co.uk</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ravensound@pilgrimsound.co.uk" target="_blank">ravensound@pilgrimsound.co.uk</a>>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Revenue collection agencies would be falling down on
the job if they<br>
> agreed to collect less cash. You can't argue with
them, unless you<br>
> have a cheaper legal team than they have! I don't
know if the<br>
> Tribunal route is viable for similar reasons. One
other<br>
> possibility, which might be worth a look is the
ex-competition<br>
> regulator, now re-born as - the CMA! Only this time it
means the<br>
> Competition and Markets Authority. As new boys on
the block they<br>
> might be worth asking since the collection agencies are
effectively<br>
> monopolies and have to act in the public interest under
the 1973<br>
> Fair Trading Act (as amended by the 1998 Competition
Act). The CMA<br>
> will hear complaints from business as well as
consumers.<br>
><br>
> Tony Bailey<br>
><br>
> On 12/03/15 21:06, <a href="mailto:tlr@gairloch.co.uk"
target="_blank">tlr@gairloch.co.uk</a> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:tlr@gairloch.co.uk" target="_blank">tlr@gairloch.co.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> Re the question of profits, I gave my take on that
in my reply to<br>
>> Nick. PPL's position would be that it isn't
concerned with your<br>
>> profits, it is concerned to get a fair return on
the value you get<br>
>> from their members in being able to run the radio
station at all,<br>
>> whether that is for social gain or financial
gain.The argument I<br>
>> have with PPL is in their approach and attitude,
and the actual<br>
>> amounts they try to levy. Especially I see no
true justification<br>
>> for the large minimum charges under the licences
(that just<br>
>> encourages them to have inefficient admin with the
costs covered<br>
>> by small stations). Nor do I believe there should
be additional<br>
>> fees for simulcasts. The strange thing is you could
treble your<br>
>> population coverage geographically (Ofocm
permitting) and there<br>
>> would be no change whatever in the licence other
than reflected in<br>
>> increased revenue, but if you add a different
access method, even<br>
>> covering teh same area, they want a huge increase
in charges.<br>
>> The trouble is that with annual revenues
approaching £200m, PPL<br>
>> can rely on the principle of 'might is right' to
have it all its<br>
>> own way with small operators. The present system
denies justice to<br>
>> those who can't afford the barristers' fees and
risk the potential<br>
>> legal costs of arguing their case before the
Copyright Tribunal,<br>
>> which is the arbitration route offered by the law.<br>
>> The only routes left for thise without thousands to
spend on<br>
>> legalities are either individual negotiation, which
PPL says it<br>
>> won't do, a collective approach, which is where CMA
could really<br>
>> come into its own, lobbying the legislators, civil
disobedience,<br>
>> or a combination of all the above.<br>
>> Sadly, CMA's track record of negotiating with PPL
isn't very<br>
>> inspiring - they have achieved tiny concessions
around the edges<br>
>> of the licence, but no overall rationalization or
serious<br>
>> reduction in charges. The whole sector should long
ago have held<br>
>> out for a simple low percentage of revenue royalty
- I would<br>
>> propose 1% of NBR for micro/non-profit stations (eg
turnover less<br>
>> than say £100k or a similar threshold figure
related to the<br>
>> current 2% and 3% bands). Full stop. No minimum
charges, no extra<br>
>> licences for simulcasts.<br>
>> Alex<br>
>>> On 12 March 2015 at 18:21 David Duffy<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:david@theradiopeople.co.uk"
target="_blank">david@theradiopeople.co.uk</a>> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:david@theradiopeople.co.uk" target="_blank">david@theradiopeople.co.uk</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Hi Nick/Phil<br>
>>> Just before I reply. can I ask. This email
thread it’s missing<br>
>>> other people's contributions on the subject of
'The Cost Of The<br>
>>> DAB Trials’ that were made previously
(including one from me). I<br>
>>> don’t begin to understand how mailman
works but my earlier<br>
>>> response is still on the thread online but not
in this email.<br>
>>> What’s that all about?<br>
>>> Anyhow, I wholeheartedly agree. I think
there is a strong case<br>
>>> for the CMA to talk to both copyright bodies on
the grounds that<br>
>>> as the use of their members material is on a
not-for-profit<br>
>>> basis, community radio stations should be
exempt from fees.<br>
>>> Unlike a commercial radio station where
ultimately the<br>
>>> shareholders gain financially from the use of copyrighted<br>
>>> material; or in a shop where the proprietor
benefits commercially<br>
>>> from playing copyrighted material; the use of
the very same<br>
>>> copyrighted material on a not-for-profit
community radio station<br>
>>> just contributes to the service perpetuating.
There is no net<br>
>>> financial gain. If anything, the playing of
their members<br>
>>> material contributes to sales, downloads,
merchandise, concert<br>
>>> tickets, etc. So their must surely be a zero
sum argument to be<br>
>>> negotiated here on behalf of the Community
Radio sector?<br>
>>> David<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.theradiopeople.co.uk"
target="_blank">www.theradiopeople.co.uk</a> <<a
href="http://www.theradiopeople.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.theradiopeople.co.uk</a>><br>
>>><br>
>>>> On 12 Mar 2015, at 16:38, Canalside's The
Thread <<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:office@thethread.org.uk"
target="_blank">office@thethread.org.uk</a> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:office@thethread.org.uk" target="_blank">office@thethread.org.uk</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>><br>
>> Reply -<a href="mailto:cma-l@commedia.org.uk"
target="_blank">cma-l@commedia.org.uk</a> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:cma-l@commedia.org.uk" target="_blank">cma-l@commedia.org.uk</a>><br>
>><br>
>> The cma-l mailing list is a members' service
provided by the Community Media Association -<a
href="http://www.commedia.org.uk" target="_blank">http://www.commedia.org.uk</a><br>
>> Twitter:<a href="http://twitter.com/community_media"
target="_blank">http://twitter.com/community_media</a><br>
>> <a
href="http://www.facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation</a><br>
>> Canstream Internet Radio & Video:<a
href="http://www.canstream.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.canstream.co.uk/</a><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>><br>
>> Mailing list guidelines:<a
href="http://www.commedia.org.uk/about/cma-email-lists/email-list-guidelines/"
target="_blank">http://www.commedia.org.uk/about/cma-email-lists/email-list-guidelines/</a><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>><br>
>> To unsubscribe or manage your CMA-L mailing list
subscription please visit:<br>
>> <a
href="http://mailman.commedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cma-l" target="_blank">http://mailman.commedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cma-l</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Local Reports athttp://<a
href="http://www.ravensound.pilgrimsound.co.uk" target="_blank">www.ravensound.pilgrimsound.co.uk</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
><br>
> Reply - <a href="mailto:cma-l@commedia.org.uk"
target="_blank">cma-l@commedia.org.uk</a> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:cma-l@commedia.org.uk" target="_blank">cma-l@commedia.org.uk</a>><br>
><br>
> The cma-l mailing list is a members' service provided
by the<br>
> Community Media Association - <a
href="http://www.commedia.org.uk" target="_blank">http://www.commedia.org.uk</a><br>
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