[cma-l] Licensing and VAT

Thu Jan 5 16:13:17 GMT 2017

Yes, but as I said, the mechanical rights payments here are small (and I think many stations didn’t use to pay them at all. In the days when we paid MCPS separately for dubbing rights (about 10 years ago) it was about £5 a year – I think the equivalent licence is just over £200 now.

The performance rights are the costly ones.

Alex

From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Artisan Broadcast (Sales)
Sent: 05 January 2017 14:24
To: The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Licensing and VAT

You only play performancing rights (like our PRS) in the US. There are no exemptions in the UK - just a flat rate fee for hospital broadcasters and RSLs etc.

Regards,

Catie Lake

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On 5 January 2017 at 13:12, Alex Gray, Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk> > wrote:

James/Catie: I’m puzzled by this discussion. Maybe there are some exemptions for pure mechanical rights, but as far as I understood it, for the music performance rights the US operates a roughly similar system as the UK, but with generally much lower royalty rates. 

In the United States, royalties are collected and distributed by the Performing Rights Organizations ASCAP, SESAC and BMI. ASCAP and BMI offer blanket licences to radio stations similarly to PRSfM/PPL, except that they operate under “consent decrees” issued by the US Department of Justice in response to concerns about the anticompetitive tendencies of the publishers (whose monopolistic activities would otherwise have been illegal in the US). The decrees are Intended to promote competition in the marketplace for musical works, and encourage ASCAP and BMI to compete with each other to offer the most attractive licence terms.

It’s also important to note that unlike the monopolistic positions of PPL and PRSfM in the UK, under the US consent decree provisions, ASCAP and BMI’s licenses are non-exclusive and rights holders retain the right to individually license their works. (In the UK PPL and PRSfM prohibit this, so for example, denying signed artists the option of waiving their fees for non-profit users.) A number of artists are signed to the competing but much smaller SESAC instead (including some big names, such as Bob Dylan). SESAC charges non-profits according to US Copyright Office rates (currently about $150/year for population less that 250,000).

ASCAP has very low flat rate charges for non-profit and low-power stations, a fraction of the fees charged here by PRSfM.

I note that in the US 7,000 mainstream commercial stations have just refused to continue their BMI copyright payments of 1.7% of gross revenue (equal to 2% of NBR), and are from Jan 1 operating without BMI licences while their representative body seeks a rate of 1.4%. BMI has a minimum charge of $588 – just over half that charged by each of PPL and PRSfM. They also have a much more progressive charging scheme for stations that don’t broadcast full-time.

Or have I completely misunderstood the US model?

Alex

PS also in the US small cafés, shops, offices etc *don’t* have to pay performance licences to play radios as PPL and PRS demand in the UK. 

From:  <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto: <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of James Cridland
Sent: 04 January 2017 22:25
To: The Community Media Association Discussion List < <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Licensing and VAT

The US is the only country in the world that doesn't charge for mechanical rights. It is a dangerous comparison. Every other country in the world operates similar to the UK model.

If you back-announced every song with a clear name of artist, song title, album it is from and its record label, and only played music that was unfamiliar to your audience, you would potentially have slightly more of a case for claiming it is for publicity of the artist concerned.

However, as it is, claiming that radio plays music *only* to promote the artists is a lie. You play music to gain an audience from which to operate a business, and because it's cheaper playing a song than it is producing a great piece of speech content.

These public arguments do nothing for UK community radio's reputation.

On Thu., 5 Jan. 2017, 04:27 Artisan Broadcast (Sales), <sales at artisanbroadcast.uk <mailto:sales at artisanbroadcast.uk> > wrote:

US "licences" are not charge for mechanical rights for exactly the promotional and prospecting reason Nick outlines. I've always found that a great many UK 'authorities' are out to charge for everything without considering the 'potential benefit or income' of a particular arrangement that may (in turn) generate a commission/revenue for the authority up the chain. A very blinkered approach if you ask me.

Regards,

Catie Lake

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On 4 January 2017 at 16:04, David (RadioPeople) <david at theradiopeople.co.uk <mailto:david at theradiopeople.co.uk> > wrote:

Beautifully described, Bill.

The analogy i’ve heard used in the past is that of the 'cornershop window' - where one pays the owner to place a card in the shop window describing the item you have for sale. You wouldn’t expect the shop owner to pay you for the privilege of having your card in their window.  Therefore, it goes, artists should be paying radio stations for advertising their product (songs) in their shop window (radio).

However, where this falls over is, unlike the corner shop radio stations have a quid pro quo. By choosing to use an artist's product (songs) you are able to attract an audience and also to be able to charge for and sell your product (advertising). Therein lies the fundamental principle. If you’re not going to accept, understand, acknowledge that principle then you should not be in music radio.  No one is compelled to use copyrighted music.  Use music that is not copyrighted and see what that does to your audience figures and/or income.

David
theradiopeople.co.uk <http://theradiopeople.co.uk> 

> On 4 Jan 2017, at 15:30, Bill Best <bill.best at commedia.org.uk <mailto:bill.best at commedia.org.uk> > wrote:
>
> Good afternoon
>
> Nick, you said:
>
> > In a nutshell, why do you have to apply for a licence to allow you to
> > do something with something that you have already paid for ???
> > it’s bonkers !     I can’t think of any other system like it ………………
> > …… can you ?
>
> Purchasing a CD does not confer to you any rights of broadcast - for which you need a separate licence. If you look at any CD that you own it will say on it "All rights reserved" meaning that the original creator of the work still owns every right to the material i.e. they have not given away the right, among others, to broadcast the material.
>
> An example of something similar, as you asked, is if you buy a licence for some software that doesn't give you the right to do anything that you like with that software such as share it. You would not have the right to upload a copy of that software to a torrent server and distribute that application over the Internet - which would be analogous to webcasting a piece of music.
>
> So, there are plenty of precedents and analogous examples. Your TV licence does not permit you to stream (e.g. broadcast) the content over the Internet or open up a theatre and charge admission for people to come and watch "Strictly".
>
> PPL and PRS for Music were invited to last year's Community Media Conference in order to put these quite basic misunderstandings to rest. I see that I may have to invite them back again this year.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bill
> --
> Operations Manager
> Community Media Association
> http://www.commedia.org.uk
> https://twitter.com/community_media
> https://facebook.com/CommunityMediaAssociation
>
> Canstream Internet Radio
> http://www.canstream.co.uk
> https://twitter.com/canstream
>
> On 4 January 2017 at 13:55, Canalside's The Thread <office at thethread.org.uk <mailto:office at thethread.org.uk> > wrote:
> I understand the legalities of it all but DISAGREE with it all with a vengeance !
>
> It’s nothing more than a legal money making racket concocted up back 1912 by a few clever boffins who knew how to work a system.
>
>
>
> By rights, if I buy or purchase something, then I own it, and I can do what I want with it because I own it. If an ‘artist’ or whoever doesn’t want people to use their material then don’t put it up for use, keep it to yourself.
>
> Put your talent and your material in a shop and if it is good enough folk will buy it, if it isn’t, they won’t and that dear all is how life works. If ever there was a classic example of cake and eat it here it is.
>
>
>
> If I buy a Ford Car next week and decide to open up a Taxi business, Ford don’t charge me each time I drive it … I buy it and then I own it. If I earn money (as in this Taxi case .. so what ?)   do I have to report to Ford every year on how much I have earned so that they can charge me 3% of it …….
>
>
>
> What has happened is CONVENIENTLY ‘they’ as in the powers that be have confused Performance etc with PIRACY and by doing so they have been able to force through legislation. No doubt the ones who forced it through originally had their fingers in the Pie and were getting a nice tickle out of it £££ and possibly still are …………..
>
>
>
> I see it like this :-
>
>
>
> If I wish to play Elton Johns music then I go out and purchase it on record / cd / download / spottyface / yogurt carton and piece of string ………. Including all his albums and singles back in the 70’s (I started buying records back in 1969) plus then cd’s, I reckon Elton has had a good butty out of me.
>
> I happen to work in an industry where I can then showcase (for Elton) his work in the hope that perhaps others will purchase his talent. In otherwords we are all happy bunnies as it benefits us as well. Please don’t be distracted or foget though by the fact we have already paid for it.
>
>
>
> Elton can then pay who he wishes for helping him write a song or play spoons on one of his songs.
>
>
>
> If Joe Public go out and buy his material he makes money, if people don’t because they don’t like it then he doesn’t make money ---- a bit like us really. If no ones listens to us and we’re not very good, there’s no PRS/PPL safety net for us !        ie:- getting paid for doing nothing.
>
>
>
> If I steal Eltons talent though and don’t pay him for his record or cd then that is breaking the law --- it is theft.
>
>
>
> So, to conclude ……………. Buy it, do what you want with it because it becomes yours. If he/she doesn’t want you to buy it, don’t do it in the first place and don’t put it up for sale.
>
> It’s just a money making racket.
>
>
>
> To rub salt in the wounds we then have PRS/PPL coming to us    official Charities / Not-for-profit Organisations asking for reports and poking their conks into our Business. Our Business is exactly what it says on the can – Not-for-profit so the end result is = zero …………..also     all the music on our system bar a handful have been bought / purchased and I have a receipt for the lot going back to 1969
>
>
>
> It’s a complete joke and folk have just gone along with it. Of course it is a multi-million pound circus now so it will probably never be tweaked.
>
>
>
> I disagree totally with this new licence and I am unsure as to what to do??    The idea and concept is good (something I suggested 8 years ago and was told ‘’oh we can’t do that’’)             By applying for it and signing the form means that you are agreeing with the terms ……… we do not agree with the terms and therefore ‘’houston we have a problem’’                   this wasn’t a consultation, it was merely yet another lipservice exercise.
>
> I have asked them to send me the invoice for the year and who to pay it to, as of yet all I have received are two letters full of gobbled gook and the usual telling me what I already know.
>
>
>
> We refuse as a Charity / Not-for-profit Organisation to fill in report forms on whether a window cleaner cleans your windows for a philanthropic thank you … I have far more important things to do each day than work out mathematically the value of that.
>
>
>
>       • It’s none of Elton Johns business           and
>       • What don’t they understand about our Net being = zero ??
>
>
> I am sick of banging my head against a brick wall
>
>
>
> In a nutshell, why do you have to apply for a licence to allow you to do something with something that you have already paid for ???   it’s bonkers !     I can’t think of any other system like it …………………… can you ?    I’m all ears
>
>
>
> Nick
>

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