[cma-l] [SPAM] Re: Licensing and VAT

Thu Jan 5 13:39:35 GMT 2017

Alan

In the US, thanks to legal decrees applied to the collecting societies, Adele, Jagger, McCartney etc would of course have the option of waiving their right to charge non-profits, or could offer CMA a lower cost deal. 

But in the UK, PPL and PRSfM operate an unfettered monopolistic, anti-competitive system of exclusive contracts with rights holders. The results are plain to see in their charges, which take no account of the scale of use in terms of population served, station power or profit distributed.

I can see that there is an argument for charging a minimum fee to a non-profit purely for the benefit of enabling a service to operate and attract listeners, but that should be proportionate and equitable. Is doesn’t seem very fair that PPL and PRSfM can make the same high minimum charges to a station serving a population of 50,000 as to one serving a population of 2,000. 

I think we should be asking the DCMS to bring forward legislation to provide for licences similar to those of ASCAP in the US, which offer low-power/small population non-profits much more realistic licensing options based on transmitter powers and/or population served.

Alex

From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Alan Coote
Sent: 05 January 2017 09:27
To: cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk
Subject: [cma-l] [***SPAM***] Re: Licensing and VAT

I think arguing that PRS/PPL have the right to collect some fees from stations is a waste of effort – that boat has sailed. 

BUT to charge stations an additional fee based on income before costs, (NBR) has to be morally a questionable activity.  

I have no idea of the total NBR collected, but I’m sure Adele, Jagger, McCartney et al would not like to hear that £500 of their royalty cheque had been taken from not for profit organisations – effectively their hands are in the till. 

Just a thought.

Kind Regards

Alan

Alan Coote

Email -  <mailto:alan.coote at 5digital.co.uk> alan.coote at MonogramMedia.co.uk

Phone - 0800 949 6655

Mobile - 07801 518858

Twitter - @TheAlanCoote <http://www.twitter.com/TheAlanCoote>  

Twitter -  <http://www.twitter.com/TheAlanCoote> @LTBShow

Web - http://www.LetsTalkBusinessOnline.com <http://www.5digital.co.uk/> 

From: <cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> > on behalf of Thread <office at thethread.org.uk <mailto:office at thethread.org.uk> >
Organization: Canalside's The Thread
Reply-To: Thread <office at thethread.org.uk <mailto:office at thethread.org.uk> >, "cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> " <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> >
Date: Wednesday, 4 January 2017 at 13:55
To: "cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> " <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> >
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Licensing and VAT

I understand the legalities of it all but DISAGREE with it all with a vengeance !

It’s nothing more than a legal money making racket concocted up back 1912 by a few clever boffins who knew how to work a system.

By rights, if I buy or purchase something, then I own it, and I can do what I want with it because I own it. If an ‘artist’ or whoever doesn’t want people to use their material then don’t put it up for use, keep it to yourself.

Put your talent and your material in a shop and if it is good enough folk will buy it, if it isn’t, they won’t and that dear all is how life works. If ever there was a classic example of cake and eat it here it is.

If I buy a Ford Car next week and decide to open up a Taxi business, Ford don’t charge me each time I drive it … I buy it and then I own it. If I earn money (as in this Taxi case .. so what ?)   do I have to report to Ford every year on how much I have earned so that they can charge me 3% of it …….

What has happened is CONVENIENTLY ‘they’ as in the powers that be have confused Performance etc with PIRACY and by doing so they have been able to force through legislation. No doubt the ones who forced it through originally had their fingers in the Pie and were getting a nice tickle out of it £££ and possibly still are …………..

I see it like this :-

If I wish to play Elton Johns music then I go out and purchase it on record / cd / download / spottyface / yogurt carton and piece of string ………. Including all his albums and singles back in the 70’s (I started buying records back in 1969) plus then cd’s, I reckon Elton has had a good butty out of me. 

I happen to work in an industry where I can then showcase (for Elton) his work in the hope that perhaps others will purchase his talent. In otherwords we are all happy bunnies as it benefits us as well. Please don’t be distracted or foget though by the fact we have already paid for it.

Elton can then pay who he wishes for helping him write a song or play spoons on one of his songs.

If Joe Public go out and buy his material he makes money, if people don’t because they don’t like it then he doesn’t make money ---- a bit like us really. If no ones listens to us and we’re not very good, there’s no PRS/PPL safety net for us !        ie:- getting paid for doing nothing.

If I steal Eltons talent though and don’t pay him for his record or cd then that is breaking the law --- it is theft.

So, to conclude ……………. Buy it, do what you want with it because it becomes yours. If he/she doesn’t want you to buy it, don’t do it in the first place and don’t put it up for sale.

It’s just a money making racket.

To rub salt in the wounds we then have PRS/PPL coming to us    official Charities / Not-for-profit Organisations asking for reports and poking their conks into our Business. Our Business is exactly what it says on the can – Not-for-profit so the end result is = zero …………..also     all the music on our system bar a handful have been bought / purchased and I have a receipt for the lot going back to 1969

It’s a complete joke and folk have just gone along with it. Of course it is a multi-million pound circus now so it will probably never be tweaked.

I disagree totally with this new licence and I am unsure as to what to do??    The idea and concept is good (something I suggested 8 years ago and was told ‘’oh we can’t do that’’)             By applying for it and signing the form means that you are agreeing with the terms ……… we do not agree with the terms and therefore ‘’houston we have a problem’’                   this wasn’t a consultation, it was merely yet another lipservice exercise.

I have asked them to send me the invoice for the year and who to pay it to, as of yet all I have received are two letters full of gobbled gook and the usual telling me what I already know.

We refuse as a Charity / Not-for-profit Organisation to fill in report forms on whether a window cleaner cleans your windows for a philanthropic thank you … I have far more important things to do each day than work out mathematically the value of that.

1)      It’s none of Elton Johns business           and

2)      What don’t they understand about our Net being = zero ??

I am sick of banging my head against a brick wall

In a nutshell, why do you have to apply for a licence to allow you to do something with something that you have already paid for ???   it’s bonkers !     I can’t think of any other system like it …………………… can you ?    I’m all ears 

Nick

From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk>  [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of tlr at gairloch.co.uk <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk> 
Sent: 04 January 2017 12:22
To: The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> >
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Licensing and VAT

It's just two very slightly different uses of the word 'licence' Ian - not many words in English have only one meaning. 

PPL/PRS et al could call it "A document giving you permission to do something" but that would be a bit cumbersome, and as a shorthand the word 'licence' is the term generally used for the sort of contract where someone who has the right to restrict the use of some intellectual property or material grants someone else limited permission to use that material. 

PPL and PRS gain the right to restrict public performances by means of contracts with the original copyright holders (performers, composers, record lables etc), and they in turn issue licences to people who wish to make use of the copyright materials. It's the term generally used across the field of intellectual property - licences to produce patented goods, to print copies of photographs etc. Failure to have an appropriate licence of this type is a civil offence requiring the rights holder to take out a civil law suit against the alleged infringer.

The other use of the word licence is the much narrower one relating to permission to carry on some legally restricted activity, and for which it is an offence not to have a licence issued by an authorised body. Such as a TV licence, drivers licence, lottery licence, broadcasting licence etc. Failure to have a required statutory licence is usually a criminal offence that can be dealt with by public prosecutors or fixed penalies.

I'm not a lawyer, but that's my broad understanding of the situation, and at the end of the day it doesn;t really matter much what they call it - they question is whether their terms of business and charges are acceptable.

Alex

On 04 January 2017 at 10:04 Ian Hickling <transplanfm at hotmail.com <mailto:transplanfm at hotmail.com> > wrote:

The answer from my viewpoint Geoff is that the PRSfM and PPL payments are commercial service charges which is why they are subject to VAT at the current rate.
The Royalties organisations are commercial businesses, they are not Licensing Authorities as is Ofcom.

They refer to their invoice/agreement as a "Licence" whereas it fact it is not.
As has been pointed out recently here and elsewhere, neither association has ever submitted an application to the Copyright Tribunal for a mandate under the Copyright Acts and is relying solely on its own assertion of its entitlement to collect revenue.
You may choose to make a decision as to whether you feel  they are acting transparently and within the Law.
You will probably have guessed mine.

Ian Hickling

Partner

 <http://www.transplanuk.com/> 

Office: 016 3557 8435  (07h to 22h GTS)

Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)

6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS

  _____  

From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk>  <cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> > on behalf of Geoff Rogers <geoff at susyradio.com <mailto:geoff at susyradio.com> >
Sent: 03 January 2017 23:06:54
To: CMA-L
Subject: [cma-l] Licensing and VAT

This is a quick query prompted only by our recent invoice from PPL and PRS.

The above is subject to 20% VAT but is sold to us as a a 'licence' to play the artistes' repertoire. 

However, we also pay Ofcom for a 'licence' and these are not subject to VAT.  

Can someone explain simply why VAT is payable on one form of licence and not the other.

Happy New Year to all.

Kind regards,

Geoff

-- 

Geoff Rogers
Programme Director
Susy Radio, Local Community Radio for Redhill and Reigate
On-air across Sussex and Surrey on 103.4FM NOW
Web: susyradio.com <http://susyradio.com>  <http://www.susyradio.com>

Susy Radio Ltd. A company registered in England and Wales.
Registered Office: 54 Nutfield Road, Merstham, Redhill, Surrey, RH1 3EP.
Registered Number: 06748586

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