[cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio

Sat Dec 3 14:51:01 GMT 2016

Dear All

Hmm ?     where to start ?

I no doubt every single one of us (Canalside included) are beavering away just as we always do to ensure (with the limited resources we have) to produce good programming and a nice co-ordinated and focused Community approach. We do this every Day, morning, noon and night 365 – 24/7 …………….. and can I first say that no one (not even I) have ever wished to ‘fight the establishment’               however, we have to ALL be careful we don’t get hoodwinked here into thinking that we are the ones that are doing wrong, that we are the ones spoiling for a fight and that we are never happy.

None of us started this.

In case folk get that classic ‘selective memory loss’ let me please remind us all that this whole affair (as in rules and regulations) started to go way off-piste (2004) before we had even gotten out of the starting blocks. After about 12 to 18 months it started going downhill faster than a greased Pig to where at one stage (or dare I say a number of stages)    decent, honest, hard working, voluntary people were being put in a situation where they were tearing their hair out and slowly losing the will to live.

The rules and regs that were creating this                 SADLY      half of them STILL remain and we are STILL arguing about some of them 14 years down the line. My view and opinion on this has never changed from the outset and never will until they are all put in a bin bag and dumped down the Council Tip.

Allow me to bore everyone yet again (however this is none of my making as I don’t make the rules)

1)      There are no need whatsoever for restrictions. They achieve nothing except to create ill-feeling and angst + stress of course

2)      What needs to be regulated is the spend. Nothing else needs to be regulated. If we are earning a crust from whatever means and then spending it on what we are mean’t to be spending it on, then there are no issues and no problems. The problems have been created and invented and dreamt up by Commercial Radio because the truth is they do not want us here FULL STOP. So the DCMS and the fraternity need to decide ‘’do we think Community Radio is a good idea or not ?’’      I personally think it is fan-dabby-dozy and monkeeeee magic and I believe most other reasonable minded people think the same.

3)      We (Canalside) have tariffs that in general hover around £400 quid ------- Maths wise, that works out at approx = £1 a quid a Day and when you take the production and set up fee out of it, then slightly less even still. I repeat yet again …. If this threatens the commercial viability of the commercial Radio Station   (in our case Silk plus Signal and Key in this area)   then it is a sorry state of affairs and dare I go as far as to say an embarrassment ! It is so ridiculous it is laughable.

4)      What is wrong with a reasonable and sensible minimum / average fee with no reporting ?  (NBR) (because most of us a spinning 50 plates as it stands)      without consultations, long winded processes, meeting after meeting, debate after debate. This is not rocket science. I have already sent the figures through and the collective amount for PRS/PPL seems reasonable to me seeing as we are all Charitable, not-for-profit etc etc ………    and if Christmas does happen to come early and we get an extra sponsor on-board is it not reasonable for us to be able to spend it on another packet of biscuits or a pot of paint ??      I don’t need to be reporting it PRS/PPL HQ, nor Noddy Holder and/or Elton John. All monies are re-invested into what we do, and to keep the wolves from the doors, pay for more training, put the lights on and buy the cat food. In fact, this is actually my report ………… this is it. I repeat again, on a reasonable average/minimum fee, some will be slightly better off, some will be slightly worse off ---- that’s life. It’s Ground Hog Day and we have been here before, and someone mentioned about running a Station on £17,000 Grand ?????????????    well I’m sorry, that is impossible if you are doing what you are meant to be doing. We’re operating at a struggle on about £40,000 - £45,000 --- ideally we need another £20,000 ………. From previous ‘’’consultations’’’       this is about average.

5)      What is wrong with a Community Station re-visiting the start up procedure, considering that the majority of us were led up the garden path, a bit raw, not very streetwise, and mistakes were made on both sides. Yet again a reasonable and fair approach to this would help everyone. Providing a small transmitter move didn’t affect anyone else or an extra 15 watts just pushed back a Commercial Station from afar ---- where is the problem ???          instead, we are trying to provide (as Pippa says)    a honest and good service that 50% of the folk we are trying to reach can’t listen because we are being trampled all over by a Station 100 Miles away. It’s pathetic, it always has been pathetic, just like all the other rules and everyone should be ashamed.

So to conclude ----- I’m not fighting the establishment, I am merely trying to reason with people and to keep knocking to hope that some folk eventually see sense. I didn’t make the rules, nor did I influence the rules ………. I have however over the years influenced (a little)(I think) the breaking down of some of these rules …. I haven’t done that by remaining tight lipped or ducking down below the trench top.

I truly wish that I hadn’t had to do this as I know in some quarters I have been an irritation ….. unfortunately, if that is how the cookie crumbles, so be it ---- I can sleep at night and hold my head up.

Following the AGM, I would be over the Moon if our team could find the strength and encouragement to go back to day dot with all of this and start again to peg away to get a reasonable solution. I believe what I have written is a reasonable solution.

Let us at least try it ---------- if Commercial Radio Stations start falling down like dominoes then we can tweak it ------ wake up and smell the coffee       ‘’’that ain’t gonna happen’’’

I remind everyone once again …… we are not talking here 2 Years into a project, we are 14 Years in and it has taking this long to get one or two bits of concessions :-

What have we achieved / not achieved on the Radio Politics front in the last 14 Years ???

1)      We’ve achieved Frustration and ill-feeling

2)      We’ve achieved 17 Consultations

3)      We’ve achieved 4 more Consultations on the back of 4 of the 17 that we had already had

4)      We’ve achieved an allowance of no restrictions up £15,000 grand ….. this process took 21 Months (or should I say 10 Years and 21 Months)

5)      We’ve achieved 6 points for when licences run out for a second term ( I was responsible for sticking in point 6 as we only had 5 when it was floated) ---- these are slightly concerning though as no one has heard a dickie bird about them for over 18 Months ???

6)      We’ve achieved that after 6 Years of trying Ofcom seem to be finally having a chin-wag with Ian regarding FM frequencies

We haven’t achieved a rise in the funding Pot, nor have we had a reasonable explanation as to how the Government has suddenly found £8 Million quid from off a Money Tree without a reasonable explanation as to why we can’t have a little slice of it and we invite BBC Folk to our Gatherings who likewise think we shouldn’t have any of it.

We’ve also haven’t managed to get on-air yet some Stations who are have ready to go for 2 Years and are still waiting … Cannock for one …………………. 

There are lots and lots of other things I could write and lots of things I could say, but unfortunately we get cut short at meetings because someone has Train to catch.

To round off ---- in a Nutshell I am saying that we do not wish to fight establishments, we merely want to be left alone to do what we are meant to be doing …………….sadly we are not left alone ---- the rules don’t leave us alone. They peck away at us day in and day out.

I am not guilty in any of this and therefore I shall continue to express my thoughts and opinions, whether folk listen or not is another matter ….. quite honestly I don’t care.

One final final thing     it is very obvious that some people on the message board are clearly in the other camp, one passed a comment about 4 days ago, always to the tune of that it is us/we who are being unreasonable ……

Not true

Thank you to everyone who gives their opinions and thoughts on this message board, I happen to think it is helpful and keeps people informed.

Am I touch early ??       Merry Christmas everybody !             oooops, that’s another £5 quid for Noddy     :)

Regards

Nick

From: martinsteers at gmail.com [mailto:martinsteers at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Martin Steers
Sent: 02 December 2016 14:56
To: Canalside's The Thread <office at thethread.org.uk>; The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio

Dear all,

The CMA has continued to represent the sector and lobby hard for better terms etc from PPL & PRS, we have won some concessions with the reduced fees for CR stations who want to simulcast DAB & CR FM/AM. (I think from memory a saving of £500 a year).. and there are also other areas and work that still needs to be done as far as I am concerned (RSL fees, SSDAB for CR/Not for Profits etc).

However other than representation and lobbying as the CMA currently are doing, I am not sure what else the organisation can do that is responsible and legal.

The CMA couldnt condone or recommend a boycott of fees or anything else that could get stations or the CMA into legal hot water, nor can they engage legal advice without a "warchest".

If the sector wants to come together and put up some money to consider taking PPL/PRS to copyright tribunal then I am sure the CMA could help coordinate the effort and bring it all together, but I suspect we would need at least £10k just to engage a firm to do some ground work.. and the sector could be looking at tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds to fully take the case. Not to mention I think the looser pays all the costs dont they? so that would need to be budgeted for.

As ever I would recommend stations consider the situation, evaluate your numbers / finances, what counts on NBR etc I suspect 95% of stations would only pay the minimal fees and if you need someone else to check your numbers I am sure the office or myself would be more than happy.

Martin

On 2 December 2016 at 14:36, Canalside's The Thread <office at thethread.org.uk <mailto:office at thethread.org.uk> > wrote:

Good Heavens

I can have field day on this discussion ………I’m just a bit busy at the moment but I’ll sink my teeth into it when I get five mins.

Nick Dumpty

From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk>  [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> ] On Behalf Of tlr at gairloch.co.uk <mailto:tlr at gairloch.co.uk> 
Sent: 02 December 2016 12:20

To: The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> >
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio

That's a nice thought, but a very simplistic approach Pippa.

Your advice is probably good for a station that is allowed to take advertising and has a population of, say, 10,000 or more to go at. But it's not so easy for a station serving a huge area with a population of under 3,000. I have no problem with payment of reasonable royalties, but the payment should be better related to the value of the rights being granted.

Under the present system, a small station that can't feasibly generate more than, say, £10,000 in broadcast revenue pays more than 15% of its revenue in PPL/PRS royalties (thanks to the effect of minimum fees), whereas a station in a more populated area that is able to raise, say, £50,000 a year, and has a much larger pool of potential volunteers available, pays around 3%.

There are other unjustified anomalies - such as if you add an FM relay that doubles your potential audience, there is no direct additional charge, but if you add a DAB transmitter serving fewer people than your existing FM transmitter you do pay extra.

Alex

On 02 December 2016 at 11:47 Pippa at Curly Radio <pippa at curlyradio.com <mailto:pippa at curlyradio.com> > wrote:

Alternatively we can all stop wasting valuable time and energy in fighting the system.  Instead, focus on developing brilliant locally focused programmes which engage and build your audience.  That way you will have advertisers and sponsors lined up who will cover the cost of your licences.

It’s also much more fun 

Happy Friday everyone.

Pippa

From: Canalside's The Thread

Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 11:21 AM

To: 'The Community Media Association Discussion List'

Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio

Dear All

I suggested to PRS/PPL back in 2011 that would it not make sense for all concerned to have :-

1)      One collection point

2)      One fee covering everything

3)      One fee (be it either a minimum fee or an average fee)

Like quite a lot of my suggestions over the years, they were dismissed and laughed at. Very odd though that 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 years later down the line we always end regurgitating them and tagging them with ‘’ah, that’s not a bad idea’’    or actually implementing them full stop. Remember that most do actually agree but fall under the category of the ‘silent majority’

If you would like me to give you a list of those observations, pointers etc    I can do ---- I’m up to 15 at the moment on my list, which is exactly the same number as my ‘’well I told you so’s’’

Best if we get to the nitty gritty though

We have to face up to the fact that in all changes of things and tweaks to things some folk will be slightly better off and some will be slightly worse off (that’s life) ……………. But alas ----- unless we start working as a team and a fraternity we will forever be going around in circles and being picked off one by one and walked on by the authorities.

I hope at the AGM this year we actually walk out of the place at 5:30pm with a clear vision as to     what works, what doesn’t work, what we have concerns about, and most importantly what are we going to do about it, as whinging for the next 14 Years (me included) is not acceptable. I would also hope that we stop being nicey nicey all the time and face up to the fact that sometimes sadly we have to be controversial and we have to say the things that are maybe not pleasant.

I’m afraid with this PRS/PPL malarkey it does drop on my ‘’well I told you so list’’           unless I have missed something, we haven’t really gained anything ???   or that’s how it seems.

I hear what Bill is saying and there are some changes to the DAB malarkey      however, the truth is, the majority of us couldn’t even afford a Yogurt Carton and a piece of string, let alone DAB …… so it’s a none starter.

NBR or whatever you call it in relation to Community Radio    HAS TO GO BON VOYAGE / DUMP IT !    it rubs against everything we stand for, I have been saying this since day dot. We (Canalside) do not fill this form in as I refuse to do so. I suggest everyone else (all 270) do exactly the same. It isn’t NET it is GROSS …………. And Gross has no bearing on what we do.

We (Community Radio) are charitable, With some actually fully fledged charities, all not-for-profit and the rules that we operate under (or is that Straight-Jacket?) means we do exactly what it says on the Can/Tin.

With this in mind (I repeat) come the end of the financial year be that in our case November but others maybe April the end result is = not a Pot to Pee in. What do PRS/PPL/DCMS etc not understand about that ??  it seems quite simple to grasp.

Our report is NOTHING TO REPORT apart from the fact on average we play 9 songs per-hour. If that changes we will inform PRS/PPL    we shouldn’t have to keep informing them every 12 Months.

Come November our Pockets are empty.

I didn’t really fill the consultation in for a number of reasons :-

1)      They already know my/our thoughts on this as I have told them directly on at least 20 occasions since 2008

2)      It isn’t a consultation really coz the folk at the other end aren’t reading it, nor are they listening

3)      The Agenda (if we are being honest with each other) couldn’t really give a flying cactus about us, it was more for making things easier for PRS/PPL          not actually a crime, but hey, can we not work together on this please ?

4)      And finally --- when Lucy and Laura (who are two lovely people may I add) were in Birmingham, the whole exercise was pointless. Just like all the other nonsenses    ie:- BBC man etc etc     we sit for an hour being told what the rules are (we already know the rules)(in fact I know them better than the authorities)    they tell more small print, yet again what we already know and then hey presto we get to Bingo time and we’ve run out of time because someone has a Train to catch. This is NOT a consultation, it is a stitch up. As long as we tip toe and pussyfoot along with it we will for ever be on the receiving end.

My suggestion is a couple of Grand (£1600 - £2000) for the LOT ……….. this includes the FM and Internet for both and in our case here at Canalside – if we wish to run a small 100/200 stream training facility for the youngsters that gets chucked in for free. We make no money from this whatsoever but they charge us. We feel so strongly about it that we will possibly be stopping the payments now as this consultation seems to have achieved not much at all.

Finally, there is NO REPORTING as there is nothing to report. When we have paid all of our bills we end up with not a sausage and then we start afresh the following year.

This is all plain sailing and common sense to me ….. trouble is when Community Radio started Common sense went out the window.

Absolutely finally I would like to put my suggestion forward and ask if the CMA and Members will back it. If not, then that’s fine, but a word of warning ---- you/we are now at a crossroads, get some fire in your bellies (take note) or else Community Radio in the next number of years in the main will start to fade away, and that would be a travesty after all the hard graft we have each put in.

Obviously, those just on T’internet would pay about £600 quid-dish ??

Just done the Maths, and as you know I’m not very good at Maths (nor English LOL)     and to my calculation 270 x £2000 = £540,000 unless I have the decimal point in the wrong place (sorry if I have got this wrong)                    that’s not a bad little guaranteed tickle though for Chrimbo

Thank you

H Dumpty / Doormat FM

From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk>  [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Ian Hickling
Sent: 01 December 2016 17:17
To: The Community Media Association Discussion List <cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> >
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio

That's Stanford University and US law - no relevance over here fortunately.

Ian Hickling

Partner

 <http://www.transplanuk.com/> 

Office: 016 3557 8435  (07h to 22h GTS)

Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)

6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS

  _____  

From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk>  <cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk> > on behalf of Tony Bailey <ravensound at pilgrimsound.co.uk <mailto:ravensound at pilgrimsound.co.uk> >
Sent: 01 December 2016 16:39:26
To: cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk <mailto:cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk> 
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio

The term "licence" or "license" is used by an authority but it has also been used to give rights under an agreement:

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/introduction/permission-tools-licenses-and-releases/

Tony Bailey

On 01/12/16 14:03, Ian Hickling wrote:

That's very informative - thank you.

But they've left out (or - Heaven forbid - ignored) two important aspects of the responses to their Joint Consultation:

1 - If this is a Licence - as opposed to a Service Charge - why isn't it issued by the only Licensing Authority in the system - which is Ofcom?  PRSfM and PPL are commercial businesses - not Licensing Authorities

2 - Despite many requests - there is still no categorical statement as to why PRSfM and PPL are entitled in Law to claim these payments - and precisely where this is written in UK Legislation.

Sorry - I know I've asked this many times before - but it's something we do need to have laid before us - and by the very people who are making these far-reaching demands.

My feeling is that broadcasters large and small who part with their hard-earned cash before being happy with the answers are rather unwise.

This isn't going to go away.
It makes no odds to us - we don't pay these charges - it's you out there, our friends and loyal Clients, that I'm concerned about.

Ian Hickling

Partner

 <http://www.transplanuk.com/> Office: 016 3557 8435  (07h to 22h GTS)

 <http://www.transplanuk.com/> Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)

 <http://www.transplanuk.com/> 6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS

  _____  

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