[cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community Radio

Fri Dec 2 14:55:42 GMT 2016

Dear all,

The CMA has continued to represent the sector and lobby hard for better
terms etc from PPL & PRS, we have won some concessions with the reduced
fees for CR stations who want to simulcast DAB & CR FM/AM. (I think from
memory a saving of £500 a year).. and there are also other areas and work
that still needs to be done as far as I am concerned (RSL fees, SSDAB for
CR/Not for Profits etc).

However other than representation and lobbying as the CMA currently are
doing, I am not sure what else the organisation can do that is responsible
and legal.

The CMA couldnt condone or recommend a boycott of fees or anything else
that could get stations or the CMA into legal hot water, nor can they
engage legal advice without a "warchest".

If the sector wants to come together and put up some money to consider
taking PPL/PRS to copyright tribunal then I am sure the CMA could help
coordinate the effort and bring it all together, but I suspect we would
need at least £10k just to engage a firm to do some ground work.. and the
sector could be looking at tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds to
fully take the case. Not to mention I think the looser pays all the costs
dont they? so that would need to be budgeted for.

As ever I would recommend stations consider the situation, evaluate your
numbers / finances, what counts on NBR etc I suspect 95% of stations would
only pay the minimal fees and if you need someone else to check your
numbers I am sure the office or myself would be more than happy.

Martin

On 2 December 2016 at 14:36, Canalside's The Thread <office at thethread.org.uk
> wrote:

> Good Heavens
>
>
>
> I can have field day on this discussion ………I’m just a bit busy at the
> moment but I’ll sink my teeth into it when I get five mins.
>
>
>
> Nick Dumpty
>
>
>
> *From:* cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:
> cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] *On Behalf Of *tlr at gairloch.co.uk
> *Sent:* 02 December 2016 12:20
>
> *To:* The Community Media Association Discussion List <
> cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>
> *Subject:* Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community
> Radio
>
>
>
> That's a nice thought, but a very simplistic approach Pippa.
>
> Your advice is probably good for a station that is allowed to take
> advertising and has a population of, say, 10,000 or more to go at. But it's
> not so easy for a station serving a huge area with a population of under
> 3,000. I have no problem with payment of reasonable royalties, but the
> payment should be better related to the value of the rights being granted.
>
> Under the present system, a small station that can't feasibly generate
> more than, say, £10,000 in broadcast revenue pays more than 15% of its
> revenue in PPL/PRS royalties (thanks to the effect of minimum fees),
> whereas a station in a more populated area that is able to raise, say,
> £50,000 a year, and has a much larger pool of potential volunteers
> available, pays around 3%.
>
> There are other unjustified anomalies - such as if you add an FM relay
> that doubles your potential audience, there is no direct additional charge,
> but if you add a DAB transmitter serving fewer people than your existing FM
> transmitter you do pay extra.
>
> Alex
>
> On 02 December 2016 at 11:47 Pippa at Curly Radio <pippa at curlyradio.com>
> wrote:
>
> Alternatively we can all stop wasting valuable time and energy in fighting
> the system.  Instead, focus on developing brilliant locally focused
> programmes which engage and build your audience.  That way you will have
> advertisers and sponsors lined up who will cover the cost of your licences.
>
>
>
> It’s also much more fun [image: Smile]
>
>
>
> Happy Friday everyone.
>
> Pippa
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Canalside's The Thread
>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 2, 2016 11:21 AM
>
> *To:* 'The Community Media Association Discussion List'
>
> *Subject:* Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community
> Radio
>
>
>
> Dear All
>
>
>
> I suggested to PRS/PPL back in 2011 that would it not make sense for all
> concerned to have :-
>
>
>
> 1)      One collection point
>
> 2)      One fee covering everything
>
> 3)      One fee (be it either a minimum fee or an average fee)
>
>
>
> Like quite a lot of my suggestions over the years, they were dismissed and
> laughed at. Very odd though that 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 years later down the line we
> always end regurgitating them and tagging them with ‘’ah, that’s not a bad
> idea’’    or actually implementing them full stop. Remember that most do
> actually agree but fall under the category of the ‘silent majority’
>
> If you would like me to give you a list of those observations, pointers
> etc    I can do ---- I’m up to 15 at the moment on my list, which is
> exactly the same number as my ‘’well I told you so’s’’
>
>
>
> Best if we get to the nitty gritty though
>
>
>
> We have to face up to the fact that in all changes of things and tweaks to
> things some folk will be slightly better off and some will be slightly
> worse off (that’s life) ……………. But alas ----- unless we start working as a
> team and a fraternity we will forever be going around in circles and being
> picked off one by one and walked on by the authorities.
>
>
>
> I hope at the AGM this year we actually walk out of the place at 5:30pm
> with a clear vision as to     what works, what doesn’t work, what we have
> concerns about, and most importantly what are we going to do about it, as
> whinging for the next 14 Years (me included) is not acceptable. I would
> also hope that we stop being nicey nicey all the time and face up to the
> fact that sometimes sadly we have to be controversial and we have to say
> the things that are maybe not pleasant.
>
>
>
> I’m afraid with this PRS/PPL malarkey it does drop on my ‘’well I told you
> so list’’           unless I have missed something, we haven’t really
> gained anything ???   or that’s how it seems.
>
> I hear what Bill is saying and there are some changes to the DAB
> malarkey      however, the truth is, the majority of us couldn’t even
> afford a Yogurt Carton and a piece of string, let alone DAB …… so it’s a
> none starter.
>
>
>
> NBR or whatever you call it in relation to Community Radio    HAS TO GO
> BON VOYAGE / DUMP IT !    it rubs against everything we stand for, I have
> been saying this since day dot. We (Canalside) do not fill this form in as
> I refuse to do so. I suggest everyone else (all 270) do exactly the same.
> It isn’t NET it is GROSS …………. And Gross has no bearing on what we do.
>
> We (Community Radio) are charitable, With some actually fully fledged
> charities, all not-for-profit and the rules that we operate under (or is
> that Straight-Jacket?) means we do exactly what it says on the Can/Tin.
>
>
>
> With this in mind (I repeat) come the end of the financial year be that in
> our case November but others maybe April the end result is = not a Pot to
> Pee in. What do PRS/PPL/DCMS etc not understand about that ??  it seems
> quite simple to grasp.
>
>
>
> Our report is NOTHING TO REPORT apart from the fact on average we play 9
> songs per-hour. If that changes we will inform PRS/PPL    we shouldn’t have
> to keep informing them every 12 Months.
>
> Come November our Pockets are empty.
>
>
>
> I didn’t really fill the consultation in for a number of reasons :-
>
>
>
> 1)      They already know my/our thoughts on this as I have told them
> directly on at least 20 occasions since 2008
>
> 2)      It isn’t a consultation really coz the folk at the other end
> aren’t reading it, nor are they listening
>
> 3)      The Agenda (if we are being honest with each other) couldn’t
> really give a flying cactus about us, it was more for making things easier
> for PRS/PPL          not actually a crime, but hey, can we not work
> together on this please ?
>
> 4)      And finally --- when Lucy and Laura (who are two lovely people
> may I add) were in Birmingham, the whole exercise was pointless. Just like
> all the other nonsenses    ie:- BBC man etc etc     we sit for an hour
> being told what the rules are (we already know the rules)(in fact I know
> them better than the authorities)    they tell more small print, yet again
> what we already know and then hey presto we get to Bingo time and we’ve run
> out of time because someone has a Train to catch. This is NOT a
> consultation, it is a stitch up. As long as we tip toe and pussyfoot along
> with it we will for ever be on the receiving end.
>
>
>
> My suggestion is a couple of Grand (£1600 - £2000) for the LOT ……….. this
> includes the FM and Internet for both and in our case here at Canalside –
> if we wish to run a small 100/200 stream training facility for the
> youngsters that gets chucked in for free. We make no money from this
> whatsoever but they charge us. We feel so strongly about it that we will
> possibly be stopping the payments now as this consultation seems to have
> achieved not much at all.
>
>
>
> Finally, there is NO REPORTING as there is nothing to report. When we have
> paid all of our bills we end up with not a sausage and then we start afresh
> the following year.
>
> This is all plain sailing and common sense to me ….. trouble is when
> Community Radio started Common sense went out the window.
>
>
>
> Absolutely finally I would like to put my suggestion forward and ask if
> the CMA and Members will back it. If not, then that’s fine, but a word of
> warning ---- you/we are now at a crossroads, get some fire in your bellies
> (take note) or else Community Radio in the next number of years in the main
> will start to fade away, and that would be a travesty after all the hard
> graft we have each put in.
>
>
>
> Obviously, those just on T’internet would pay about £600 quid-dish ??
>
>
>
> Just done the Maths, and as you know I’m not very good at Maths (nor
> English LOL)     and to my calculation 270 x £2000 = £540,000 unless I have
> the decimal point in the wrong place (sorry if I have got this
> wrong)                    that’s not a bad little guaranteed tickle though
> for Chrimbo
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> H Dumpty / Doormat FM
>
>
>
> *From:* cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [
> mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk
> <cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk>] *On Behalf Of *Ian Hickling
> *Sent:* 01 December 2016 17:17
> *To:* The Community Media Association Discussion List <
> cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk>
> *Subject:* Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community
> Radio
>
>
>
>
>
> That's Stanford University and US law - no relevance over here fortunately.
>
>
>
> Ian Hickling
>
> Partner
>
> [image:
> https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/2SkDsnIzSZgRbNnNKBSiwxiFhFQWRGV55mTjVL23fulnJpstZmYxeKrrYefY4qxiSgkMrAETld64XINLXCsujE_zI5gAsQyWeCWvHixcrNYtar3Sij4YlVBgN2NSQ-n2DsgZvrnpWZlfwCQ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.transplanuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/transplan_UK_weblogo_190x60.png]
> <http://www.transplanuk.com/>
>
> *Office: 016 3557 8435  (07h to 22h GTS)*
>
> *Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)*
>
> *6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS*
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk <cma-l-bounces at mailman.
> commedia.org.uk> on behalf of Tony Bailey <ravensound at pilgrimsound.co.uk>
> *Sent:* 01 December 2016 16:39:26
> *To:* cma-l at mailman.commedia.org.uk
> *Subject:* Re: [cma-l] PPL & PRS for Music Joint Licence for Community
> Radio
>
>
>
> The term "licence" or "license" is used by an authority but it has also
> been used to give rights under an agreement:
>
> http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/introduction/
> permission-tools-licenses-and-releases/
>
> Tony Bailey
>
> On 01/12/16 14:03, Ian Hickling wrote:
>
>
>
> That's very informative - thank you.
>
> But they've left out (or - Heaven forbid - ignored) two important aspects
> of the responses to their Joint Consultation:
>
>
>
> 1 - If this is a Licence - as opposed to a Service Charge - why isn't it
> issued by the only Licensing Authority in the system - which is Ofcom?
> PRSfM and PPL are commercial businesses - not Licensing Authorities
>
>
>
> 2 - Despite many requests - there is still no categorical statement as to
> why PRSfM and PPL are entitled in Law to claim these payments - and
> precisely where this is written in UK Legislation.
>
>
>
> Sorry - I know I've asked this many times before - but it's something we
> do need to have laid before us - and by the very people who are making
> these far-reaching demands.
>
> My feeling is that broadcasters large and small who part with their
> hard-earned cash before being happy with the answers are rather unwise.
>
> This isn't going to go away.
> It makes no odds to us - we don't pay these charges - it's you out there,
> our friends and loyal Clients, that I'm concerned about.
>
>
>
> Ian Hickling
>
> Partner
>
> *Office: 016 3557 8435  (07h to 22h GTS)* <http://www.transplanuk.com/>
>
> *Car: 075 3098 0115 (only responds when driving)*
> <http://www.transplanuk.com/>
>
> *6 Horn Street, Compton, NEWBURY, RG20 6QS* <http://www.transplanuk.com/>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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