[cma-l] Eddie on DAB v FM

Sat Sep 5 22:16:24 BST 2015

"I must try the UK Radioplayer to see if it is smoother under Chrome than
the BBC Radioplayer."

It's the same thing. That's kind of the point!

//j

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 10:10 PM Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk> wrote:

> Sounds good - maybe it needs more promotion!
>
>
> I had never tried RadioPlayer's location feature - just tried it and
> pleasingly it offered only us and BBC Radio Scotland in this area, showing
> none of the other 5 BBC services available here! For Ullapool nearby it
> doesn't even offer any BBC stations! For most of the neighbouring
> localities where we are available (and so is the BBC in some of them) it
> shows "Sorry, no stations", which is disappointing.
>
>
> TuneIn offers each of our neighbouring local stations (Cuillin and Isles),
> and no BBC.
>
>
> I don't get any ads with TuneIn, but maybe that's because I paid for the
> Pro version years ago.
>
>
> Radioplayer doesn't seem to have schedule/broadcast details for us (nor
> Chromecast?), but I like the way it pulls from our Facebook page.
>
>
> Talking of Chrome apps, the BBC Radioplayer doesn't work for me under
> Chrome, or rather it works but stutters, which is annoying when I want to
> listen to Radio 4 at the radio station (FM reception of the BBC is very
> weak here, so I usually listen online). I must try the UK Radioplayer to
> see if it is smoother under Chrome than the BBC Radioplayer.
>
>
> TuneIn says we have 2,300 followers, which is pleasing for a station with
> a home TSA of just 1,600
>
>
> Alex :)
>
> On 05 September 2015 at 20:47 James Cridland <james at cridland.net> wrote:
>
> I use TuneIn's app too.
>
> Radioplayer provides:
> 1. A web player that actually works, and that lets people find your
> station from BBC Radio 2!
> 2. A capable app that surfaces your station - first - for people in your
> transmission area on iOS and Android, Amazon and Windows.
> 3. Logos, schedules and broadcast details for your station for a variety
> of uses including Radioplayer Car, RadioDNS-enabled tuners, and other things
> 4. A Chrome app (which I wrote <- disclosure) that puts your station onto
> everyone's desktop
> 5. An app that puts your station onto Ford Sync, Apple CarPlay and Android
> Auto (and lets you control it from Apple Watch and Android Wear)
> 6. Liason on behalf of the entire radio industry to set-top box
> manufacturers, car manufacturers and other organisations that you don't
> talk to nor have the clout to
> 7. Usage data
> ...and is run on behalf of the radio industry with your goals in mind.
>
> Even for #1 on that list, it's worth the £99. I appreciate it isn't free;
> but then, it isn't slotting ads in front of your streams or making you
> compete with 100,000 other stations, either.
>
> //j
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 8:32 PM Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk> wrote:
>
> *Your fee for Radioplayer is £99. “A more proportionate fee”?!*
>
>
> Just so, but Michael originally asked £300, which we negotiated down to
> £90 (that was at launch, it has increased 10% since).
>
>
> TuneIn's app provides more advanced facilities than Radioplayer and the
> service is entirely free to originating stations. They also provide a
> schedule and 'On now' without us having to lift a finger - they scrape our
> own published schedule periodically (I must ask them to update it as it
> seems to be slightly out of date).
>
>
> Alex
>
>
> On 05 September 2015 at 20:03 James Cridland <james at cridland.net> wrote:
>
> Your fee for Radioplayer is £99. "A more proportionate fee"?!
>
> On Sat, 5 Sep 2015 19:47 Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Yes, of course I'm aware of the other variants of FM, my point was that
> there seems ot be alarge enough market for RDS for set makers, even
> portables and some phones, such as HTC, to judge it worthwhile supporting
> RDS.
>
>
> *And you need to be continuously scanning the FM and DAB bands to populate
> this station list name, otherwise when travelling you'll never find local
> radio.*
>
>
> The radio does that for itself unbidden. I routinely use the radio's
> station list to see what stations are in range.
>
>
> *Incidentally, I cannot comprehend why anyone wouldn't be on Radioplayer,
> I must say: its the R&D department for the whole of UK radio.*
>
>
> The main reason for not being on RadioPlayer would be the cost and the
> fact that ithey won't allow you to be on mobiles if you don't provide a
> low-rate bitstream. We joined it when the BBC was on it and didn't have its
> own radioplayer which rather undermined  UK Radioplayer's proposition. But
> we did first have to negotiate a more proportionate fee!
>
>
> As a user, I still prefer to use TuneIn. It has far more facilities.
>
>
> Alex
>
>
> On 05 September 2015 at 18:45 James Cridland <james at cridland.net> wrote:
>
> Hi, Alex,
>
> The UK market is a tiny and inconsequential one to most manufacturers. The
> Digital Radio tickmark thing is actually deliberately set to mirror similar
> accreditation systems in Europe and Australia. Further, the radio industry
> is uninterested in how radio sets operate, and not big or united enough to
> talk to most manufacturers in a coherent manner.
>
> Really, we have a "North America vs rest-of-world" thing going on in radio
> receivers. You are correct that AM is different - so is FM, in fact, with
> different deemphasis values used as well as different frequency spacing.
> Pedants: Japan's different still, with FM from 76 to 108MHz. And parts of
> ex Soviet countries use something different again.
>
> "Animated and dynamic RDS names do not break tuning by name" - I bow to
> your obvious knowledge. I'd only observe that scrolling now-playing info,
> in place in many parts of the world, means that you end up with station
> names like "TY PERRY" or even "LE NOW O" which really isn't the sort of
> user experience any one wants to give, and certainly isn't recognisable.
>
> Tuning by station name doesn't work on AM - but I'd argue that AM isn't
> part of radio's future anyway. (Pedants: it does, if you use AMSS, a kind
> of RDS for AM. Nobody does).
>
> Further, the ideal is tuning by station name irrespective of waveband - so
> you'd get "BBC 6 Music" in the same list as "TwoLochs". (You want that,
> right?) The issue here is that de-duping the list isn't simple; "BBC R
> Scot" on FM in your part of the world could be different to "BBC Radio
> Scotland" on an available local multiplex, because of local optouts. The
> BBC have deliberately broken service-following between FM and DAB, which
> has the side effect of also breaking any way that your radio can de-dupe
> Radio 4 FM from Radio 4 DAB. And so on.
>
> And you need to be continuously scanning the FM and DAB bands to populate
> this station list name, otherwise when travelling you'll never find local
> radio.
>
> The "Radioplayer Car" unit, currently in test, does all you have asked for
> and more - linking to IP as well (and more importantly linking back), and
> letting you tune by station name and logo.
> https://media.info/radio/stations/two-lochs-radio tells me that you are
> on Radioplayer, so you'll benefit when that is available for sale later
> this year.
>
> Incidentally, I cannot comprehend why anyone wouldn't be on Radioplayer, I
> must say: its the R&D department for the whole of UK radio.
>
> James
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 5 Sep 2015 18:17 Two Lochs Radio <tlr at gairloch.co.uk> wrote:
>
> *The reason RDS names aren't used as a method of tuning is that RDS isn't
> ubiquitous in the US, and in Europe many stations use animated and dynamic
> RDS names, which breaks this stuff.*
>
>
> I can't see any great force in that as a reason for not using station name
> tuning by default. The RDS radio market is clearly big enough to support it
> as an option perfectly economically in the rest of world without needing to
> work in the US. More to the point, I don't think DAB is exactly ubiquitous
> in the US either is it? And yet we have a market full of DAB sets!
>
>
> Same sort of thing applies to push button tuning on AM - the US uses 10kHz
> channel spacing and we use 9kHz, so radio circuits/chipsets in portables
> have to support both. Anyway, a radio that can tune by station list can
> still be operated by frequency if it finds itself in a non-RDS region, so
> it can only be a gain or neutral, not negative.
>
>
> Animated and dynamic RDS names do not break tuning by name - as I said, my
> car can tune by station list, and it works perfectly well in continental
> countries that use more advanced techniques - the station list shows a
> static shot of the 8 character name which is usually perfectly
> recognizable. And again, if not, you can fall back to frequency tuning.
> Tuning by station name doesn't have to be the only mode available, but it
> should (IMO) be available and the default option for a radio to get the
> tick mark.
>
>
> The IP stuff is a further argument, and perfectly fine, but no bearing on
> my suggestion that for DAB/FM radios sold for the UK market should have
> been required to offer tuning by station name across FM & DAB.
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
> On 05 September 2015 at 15:59 James Cridland <james at cridland.net> wrote:
>
> The reason RDS names aren't used as a method of tuning is that RDS isn't
> ubiquitous in the US, and in Europe many stations use animated and dynamic
> RDS names, which breaks this stuff.
>
> Neither RDS nor DAB offer handoff to IP, nor direct links to other
> IP-based resources either, so they're not, by themselves, future-proof.
>
> RadioDNS provides that mapping, which makes radio receivers significantly
> more user friendly.
>
> IP is four times smaller than DAB use here in the UK, and is growing
> slower as well. (Indeed, growth appears to have stagnated for most.)
>
> The future is multi-platform, and better sets. Sadly, existing
> broadcasters aren't entirely on-board.
>
> James
>
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