[cma-l] Community Radio Royalties

Thu Oct 28 08:47:19 BST 2010

It's simple Nick.
Putting aside all the flamboyance and emotion, by playing music to an audience and thereby gaining in one form or another, you're profiting by using someone else's property - talent - without direct permission.
That's theft.
You may have bought the CD, but you haven't bought the right to make money out of it for youself without giving back some to the owner.
You'll find that written down officially - usually on the disc and/or the accompanying packaging material.
That's embodied in the Law of Copyright.
So you pay an agent who in theory returns a proportion of your money to the artist while taking a commission.
That's a perfectly normal buiness practice.
If you're in the entertainment industry, you are duty bound to be aware of that.
If you don't like it - do something else.
If you want to change it - set about it in the democratic way through Parliament, which made the rule in the first place.
If you choose to go against it, prepare to take the consequences.
Like I said - it's simple.

From: office at ccr-fm.co.uk
To: bobtyler at btinternet.com; cma-l at commedia.org.uk
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:41:38 +0100
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties

Dear All

How about collecting nothing !?   that sounds about fair to me. Sell your records, sell your music, sell your talent and we will help to promote that and help you sell your product ………………….. for God sake, don’t bleedin’ well charge me for doing so ??

I’ll say it again …………. Who is doing who the favour ?

Hyperthetically -------------------- supposing all TV and Radio was speech based ??     they wouldn’t get anything then ………… and furthermore, their record sales would be about 10% of what they are now coz’ no one would hear them.

I tell you ………………. IT’S A MONEY MAKING RACKET AGAIN !   We are surrounded by them. And we keep giving in to them ………… and accepting it ….. WHY ?

Nick

Am I just sounding like a grumpy old man always complaining ??           I’m not really like this,    but, one or two things revolving around and relating to radio really do get my gander up !

From: ROBERT TYLER [mailto:bobtyler at btinternet.com] 
Sent: 27 October 2010 14:57
To: Office - ccr-fm
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties

I don’t know what the rates applied to CR are but think they are fairly nominal and more or less blanket charges.

The performance and mechanical right goes to the composer. Royalties through phonographic performance (ppl) generally go to the record companies. PPL does distribute some 20% of revenues (approx) to indies through a society call AIM. (see phonographic performance ltd annual accounts on their website).

Trouble when considering non mainstream music and hundreds of unknown artists overseas, a system geared to collecting for the big artists can fail. In my experience, the reality is that any monies to lesser known or even overseas artists, would be minimal. Say a few pounds when compared to say what TakeThat will collect in the next 2 years. By nature the latter being easy to collect and distribute.

The system is what we have and yes has failings but both societies might well undertake a joint collection mechanism in the future. 

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, Office - ccr-fm <office at ccr-fm.co.uk> wrote:

From: Office - ccr-fm <office at ccr-fm.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties
To: "'Ian Hickling'" <transplanfm at hotmail.com>, "'CMA-L'" <cma-l at commedia.org.uk>
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 11:15

Guess what guys (nongy-nong Nick has got a comment to make on this … (surprise surprise?)                   Looking at things simply and in laymans terms …. If we applied this rule to our lives, things would be better for all concerned ….. even the authorities.

Not fully understanding this system??? but rather looking at it as yet another bureaucratic nonsense and nightmare, I would like to make some observations.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if I go into a shop and I buy a Robbie Williams song or Katy Perry’s new single ……. Do those artists receive any money from that sale ?? I would argue that they do !                       how much they get after the agents, the record company, the advertisers, the sharks, leeches and waterbugs have all had a nibble is possibly anyones guess ??    but ……….. that is certainly none of my business and quite frankly I couldn’t give a monkeys cuss !  I’ll leave them to squabble amongst themselves.

We are a NOT-FOR-PROFIT venture, and we can prove it ……………….. so ……….. the moral of the story is that we ARE NOT making bucks out of someone elses talent or hard work ….. we are by the very nature of what we do  ‘Radio’   helping these guys raise their profile and thus promote their music sales.

Someone may say …….. well what about a pub or a bar and their PRS etc ??                   I reply …………….. ‘’yes, but there is a huge difference between about 70 people in a pub and the potential audience that we broadcast to !          as I said recently to the gentleman at PRS / PPL ……….. who is doing who the favour ??              I said to him, that HE SHOULD BE PAYING ME !   AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND !                     it is yet another legal debacle that gets right up my nose.
In fact, some people who stick a song on a jukebox do so because they heard it on CCR ?!

As in this e-mail ping pong some of our fraturnity/brotherhood state that they use a lot of speech and a lot of music that ain’t PRS associated ……………… WE PAY for most of our music ……………….. perhaps the PRS could have a word with sony and the likes to start sending ALL their music to us so at least we can save some money aside to pay them.

My view is that I’m paying bloody Robbie Williams (3) (THREE) times !                

1)       CCR buys the single = (Robbie receives money)
2)       CCR promotes the single = (Robbie receives profile which = more money)
3)       CCR then has to pay dues to the PRS even though we’ve promoted it and help sell it ! = (loads o’ money, cheers easy, in the back pocket we go !)   
Mr Williams has a look at us on the website and sez’ to himself        ‘’what mugs’’          they buy my record, they promote me and I get a nice little tickle as well from royalties

WHAT A BLEEDIN’ JOKE !……………… this runs along side the fact that we’ve got a community fund that is neither use nor ornament, rules that have been brought in by Government morons who have got no idea or bearing as to what is going on around them, ……….. ie:- absolutely no advertising, absolutely no undue prominence !      there’s another balls-up by the way ………………… Fred Bloggs the window cleaner gives us a donation of a £1000, where as Annie Goggins the Candlestick maker gives a much smaller donation of £100 …. But we darn’t say thank you more times to Fred than Annie because of undue prominence ??     this is NOT undue prominence, it is DUE PROMINENCE

Anyway …………… I’m going off piste again ………………………. The point I am making again is this ---------------------

We are having the peeeee taken out of us ‘big style’ ………. We are being laughed at and insulted, we are being bullied and all the whinging has to stop. Get your bloody sleeves rolled up and let’s have a go as a group ….

I STILL believe there will be a sympathetic judge somewhere who will sway into our camp ………… I have gone through the trading laws with a fine tooth comb …. Trust me, there are a hell of a lot of loop-holes …………… CCR cannot do it alone.

With reference to the PRS ……………….. I suggest we tell them to stick that as well and either put a bill into them or at least come to contra deal. If they want me to pay them then they can firstly send me the music free of charge or I’ll buy the music and there is no charge for playing it ………………………….. it’s the old same old same old ……… the goalposts are being shunted around to suit …….. and all the favours drop on their side of the court
Why ?              because we’re all a load of mugs, that’s why ……….

Finally, so that people understand where I’m coming from ……. A Commercial Radio Station / a Night Club / a Pub / a Cruise Ship …………. They are all MONEY MAKING RACKETS AND PROFIT MAKING VENTURES ……. Possibly they should pay ?!                            WE ARE NOT !     AND WE ARE DIFFERENT !

Oh …….. and absolutely finally ………… Commercial Radio gets all its music for free from the record companies ….. they class us as to small, so we don’t get any.Perhaps the CMA could put them right on that one as well, and get the sony’s etc to send it to them, for them to send it to us ………….. I think a little word in Mr Sony’s ear ‘’ 217 Community Stations in the Country’’              I actually don’t think we are small at all ??!                 we will then have the spare money to pay Mr PRS.

‘’Simples    eeeek’’     said the meerkat                          compair the market <> we’re getting a raw deal at the moment !       

Nick

From: cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk [mailto:cma-l-bounces at mailman.commedia.org.uk] On Behalf Of Ian Hickling
Sent: 27 October 2010 08:42
To: Peter Vautier; Trevor Lockwood
Cc: cma-l
Subject: [cma-l] Community Radio Royalties

I'm in a cleft stick here.
I believe that people who make music should be properly rewarded for their art - but at the same time the present system appears to be illogical, secretive and unfair.
Has any broadcaster ever told the societies that they're not paying their exhorbitant arbitrary and unexplained fees and to go ahead and sue?
Bill will know that only last week he managed to ensure that a new broadcaster was only charged pro-rata for two months' royalties when the organisation concerned had insisted - would you beleive - on a full 12-month fee for two months' activity.
Peter raises the point about using music from other countries and how Royalties are and should be paid.
As I understand it - and I may be quite wrong - there are parallel agreements throughout the world with other royalty collection agencies.
We provide facilities for stations serving Asian communities and they never ever pay PRS, MCPS and PPL as far as I can see. 
If English-language stations in the UK are required to pay, then why are these equally-licensed broadcasters apparently exempted because their music orignated in another country?
Why doesn't Ofcom collect these royalties - if indeed they are fully authenticated in Law - at the same time as the Licence Fees?

Ian Hickling
Partner
transplan UK

From: admin at londonhuayu.co.uk
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:16:28 +0100
To: trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk
CC: cma-l at commedia.org.uk
Subject: Re: [cma-l] PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ - your feedback required

I'd second that -  a very large proportion of our music is from Mainland China , which isn't under the PRS/PPL license.  

It would also be good if these artists actually got paid royalties for their work, since it is so hard to make money from music in China , and since the record companies over there have been so supportive by giving us interviews, etc.

Peter Vautier

London Chinese Radio

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:56 AM, <trevor at felixstoweradio.co.uk> wrote:

Bill

I was not aware of any stated policy about the CMA and PRS relationship.

In the past I've wondered whether CMA is now large enough to consider creating its own version of PRS, working with that organisation, but achieving economies of scale by having one application/funding stream.

My real concern with the present system is that at Felixstowe Radio we have a large speech content, and we also play many tracks from artists that are not yet registered with PRS. Our output is not specifically recorded by PPL - so we pay them more than we should, and our artists don't get to sniff the barmaid's apron.

Is it true that the PRS boss earns £600K?

Trevor

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Best
Sent: 26/10/10 10:38 AM
To: cma-l at commedia.org.uk
Subject: [cma-l] PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ - your feedback required

Hi  Jaqui's not available today to address the issues that some of you have recently brought up on the list as she's attending a meeting at DCMS to represent the sector to the Digital Radio Marketing Group. Yesterday Jaqui was at the "Community Radio and Digitally Networked Business" workshop in

 Port Talbot and met a number of CMA members there.  On 15 October Jaqui and I attended a meeting at PRS for Music to discuss issues around music licensing for the sector - in particular about MCPS rates which have hitherto not yet been charged.  PRS will feedback to the CMA about MCPS rates when the relevant PRS board documentation is completed later this week.  I'm delighted to say that talks with PRS were productive and the CMA has re-established a positive working dialogue with PRS.  In the meantime PRS are currently reviewing their Community Radio documentation in advance of refreshing it with the new licence information and updated PRS rates. Are there any frequently asked questions or items that station managers are particularly interested in that require attention or further explanation?  The PRS Community Radio Licence Application and FAQ is here:  http://bit.ly/dwnsAF  Please get back to me with any feedback.  Regards  Bill --  Community Media Association http://www.commedia.org.uk/ http://twitter.com/community_media Facebook Fans: http://bit.ly/cog8n5 _______________________________________________  cma-l mailing list - cma-l at commedia.org.uk  Community Media Association - www.commedia.org.uk _______________________________________________  To manage your mailing list subscription please visit: http://mailman.commedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cma-l

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